An interesting discussion happened last week around whether parry can ruin games. During my Mastering Game Design Bootcamp, Kuo-Yen Lo from Riot Games and Celia, one of our instructors, examined this belief that if parry is too powerful, even if it is hard to execute, it breaks gameplay. For example, once players master timing, it becomes the perfect solution to every problem. This happens because we (Game Designers) tune games around our own skill level. If it's "tough enough" for us, we ship it. But once players master that frame-perfect timing, this becomes their go-to strategy, and every other mechanic becomes irrelevant. - Why dodge when you can parry? - Why use abilities when parry solves everything? In single-player games, this works. Players master parry to chase that perfect "no hit" run. But in PvP and live service games? Once players master parry, there's nowhere left to improve. They're stuck doing the same thing forever, measuring failure instead of improvement. Kuo-Yen told the class about other ways to keep parry without making it the perfect solution forever, and prevent the overpowered mechanic from ruining the gameplay: 1. Decouple power from execution difficulty - Instead of parry being a frame-perfect 100% block, make it a wider window for partial reduction, a way to build resources, or a setup for a bigger ability later. 2. Make power accessible to all skill levels - Let easy parries give damage reduction, perfect parries open counterattacks, and use cues or input variations so both new and advanced players can engage without breaking balance. That discussion definitely shifted how some students thought about balance. But I want to hear other takes. Do you agree with this view?
I think in many games it becomes an all or nothing thing. Either you can master that frame perfect timing and you're unstoppable, or you can't quite get it and you're getting slaughtered.
Deadlock’s parry is well implemented and leads to deep mental games once players master its timing against set windows. It doesn’t cause the perfect defenses problem because it can be baited to be used incorrectly. Agreed that perfect defenses make it feel bad, but it’s rewarding when its usage must mastered Opponents must time a parry within a short long punch window or predict it against an instant weak punch. Once used without being consumed, it goes on a 6s cooldown in which your opponent has free rein to melee.
Once upon a time, I identified similar issues, and came to the conclusion that the problem was in having a *perfect* effect; that when most effects have effects that map onto solid numbers (i.e. block 20 points, deal 30 points), having an effect that was “stop all damage” or “do enough damage to kill the enemy” the enemy was the problem. This led me to make a new kind of error; baking in mechanics that played with numbers in too fiddly a way, where correct play and action sequencing became more of a math exercise than an act of intuition driven skill expression and fun. Eventually, I figured out my own preferred approach: · Embrace a limited menu of perfect effects that are bold and rewarding to execute · Don’t gate them by skill; gate them by alternate costs · Make sure no perfect effect is a perfect *solution* So, in practice, this became things like (totally made up example): “A ‘parry’ is a perfect block if executed with correct, but forgiving timing. After parrying, the character may not block at all for X seconds. Energy damage may not be parried.”
I identified this on Lies of P, and I think Im to blame when mastering the parry make the game not as engaging as everyone else was telling me it was.
Kuo with all the answers!
Was here, and still find such recaps very useful. Thanks!
Tell it to Expedition 33 with it's frame perfect gameplay
Wish more people realized that. I was so disappointed by Clair Obscur where parrying just makes otherwise pretty good character building and skills irrelevant. Basically, action and RPG systems there work against each other.
Real nice visualization to explain the concept
Lead Game Developer/Lead Game Designer at Self Employed (Turmonious Games)
1wI agree with most of what is said in this post. However, I believe the parrying can still be a problem in, especially, PvP games. When it's possible to get good enough to consistently react to attacks and nullify them and be rewarded/penalize the attacker for attacking, you have a stalemate or at least an unusable attack. In PvP, parries need something to prevent this. Some potential solutions by making them: - prediction based, so they can be baited and punished - require a resource, so they can't be used constantly - part of an exchange where it doesn't guarantee anything but it changes the pace of combat - reduce damage and give other benefits, but not nullify the damage completely so they can't be used constantly These can be combined and there are other options. An example of combining could be making the parries 100% effective against many attacks but only partially effective again some attacks, which look similar to other attacks and you can't tell the difference based on reaction. When you parry a partially parriable attack, you still take decent damage and don't get to do a counter attack, but you may still build some resource, for example. I have more to say but I'm out of space lol