Feel the fear and do it anyway: Adam Grant meets Rainn Wilson

What happens when a self-confessed 'unemployed sitcom actor' on a quest for spiritual enlightenment invites one of the world's most influential pop-psychologists on to his podcast?

It's an hour-and-a-half of absolute joy, peppered with philosophical insights. It's already in my shortlist for best podcast episode of 2025.

Welcome to POP - Pick Of the Pods - your weekly podcast recommendation.

This week...

🧠 if you listen to one podcast on psychology...

... make it Soul Boom from Rainn Wilson

Adam Grant is an almost inescapable on-line presence - an 'organisational psychologist' (aka occupational psychologist in British English) who seems to be perfectly formed for the 3-second attention span age we all live in.

While most of those pithy pearls of wisdom we see online are as shallow and annoying as a 1970s 'Love is never having to say you're sorry' greetings card, Adam Grant's aphorisms usually hit home.

It's something Rainn Wilson - best known for playing Dwight on The (American) Office - acknowledges.

I have a very kind of anti-guru stance. When there are people online saying, 'you must remember to act like this, and if you do this and this, then things will come into your life and you will do X, Y, and Z'. But you're able to do it somehow. You can have your face and a line of text about how to think about something. And you know what? God damn it, you're always fricking right.

The conversation is light-hearted and witty, but also goes to some very fundamental themes, such as what is the difference between morals, rules and values; how to talk to someone with extremely different views from your own; and why children should not be brought up to make their parents proud.

This is how Wilson's website summarises the podcast:

Originally conceptualized in Rainn Wilson’s book of the same name, Soul Boom is an idea that explores the potential for a spiritual revolution—a Soul Boom to instigate healing transformations, both individually and collectively. On the podcast, Rainn extends the conversation beyond the book; engaging with the most brilliant and heart-felt artists, thinkers, and doers. Follow along as Rainn and guests delve into what it means to be human with a body and soul. Also, jokes!

Among the gems in this episode we learn that Adam Grant was once a successful springboard diver, despite a crippling fear of heights - an experience which taught him about his own psychology.

One day I just froze for the longest I'd ever frozen. It must've been 45 minutes. I was supposed to do a full twisting two and a half, which is two flips, a 360 turn, and then a dive. My coach, Eric Best, just looked at me and he said, Adam, are you going to do this dive? And I [said], You know, one day I hope to do this dive. And he said, great, what are you waiting for? And all of a sudden it hit me [...] I had the relationship between confidence and action backward. I was waiting until I felt confident to take the leap. But the only way I would build my confidence was by taking the leap, and that diving lesson has been with me every time I felt fear.

We also learn the fun fact the Hollywood tough-guy Jason Statham was also an accomplished diver - Adam knew him from the diving scene before his acting career took off:

It's a sport without a lot of people to look up to who are famous. Literally the top celebrities in springboard diving are Jason Statham and Adam Grant. There's a long drop off from 1 to 2.

Fun fact: both Rainn Wilson and Adam Grant have appeared on World Economic Forum podcasts. I met Rainn in the metaverse on Radio Davos to talk about climate change - an issue he spends much of his time campaigning on:

So we have never met in the physical world, but had a lovely chat in a virtual Arctic science lab!

Adam Grant was in Davos last January and spoke to Linda Lacina on Meet the Leader:

Get Radio Davos on any podcast app: https://pod.link/1504682164; get Meet the Leader: https://pod.link/1534915560

Why was Lenin reading about Jesus in Geneva?

I've spent well over a year researching historical curiosities in Geneva, where I live, for my podcast A Book - A Place: Geneva. And none of them has been more curious than stumbling across a book - a 19th century biography of Jesus - that had been read and annotated by Lenin, the father of the Russian revolution.

You can hear all about that on the latest episode - the fourth of five in this current season.

Get it on any podcast app: https://pod.link/nLARmR and watch a version with pictures on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty7-1zap2Hc&t=102s. Check out the website abookaplace.com and the page for this episode here.

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🎧 Thanks for listening.