Transcript: Episode 101: Brené Brown on getting it right

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This episode of Hello Monday, "Brené Brown on getting it right," was published on Monday, March 22, 2021. The interview first aired as an episode of This is Working with Daniel Roth on December 12, 2020, where it was titled, "Brené Brown helps us look ahead."

Jessi Hempel: From the news team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel, and this is Hello Monday. It's our show about the changing nature of work, and how that work is changing us. 

This week, I'm sharing another podcast we make here at LinkedIn. It's called This Is Working with Daniel Roth. Dan's our editor-in-chief at LinkedIn News, and long-time "Hello Monday" listeners probably know this, but Dan and I used to work at Fortune together, long time ago. We've known each other much of our careers, and I just love how deeply he cares about getting into a great question. You can totally hear it in this conversation with Brené Brown.

Daniel Roth: Hi, I'm Daniel Roth, LinkedIn's editor-in-chief. Welcome back to This Is Working. On every episode of this show, we talk to leaders who have had a significant impact on business and society. Today, instead of focusing on what's changing in the world at large, what's happening on a macro level, we're looking inward. How are you doing? When's the last time you really stopped to think about that question? Or for many of you, maybe that's the only thing you can think about. One thing is sure, this has been a brutal year for so many people. 

So to close out 2020, I thought we needed to have a conversation with someone who specializes in empathy, connectivity, and vulnerability. We needed Brené Brown. Brené's a research professor and five-time New York Times bestselling author. She currently hosts two podcasts, both of which I love, and is the first researcher to have a filmed lecture on Netflix. Her community on LinkedIn is nearly 2.5 million people strong. 

As Brené and I discussed backstage before this chat, we've really been seeing some shifts in what people want to discuss on LinkedIn. The two pandemics you'll hear Brené call out in the episode, COVID-19, of course, and also racial injustice, are absolutely affecting work at every level. And people seem much more eager to talk about that in professional settings than they used to be, including on our platform, and we get that. Our world is changing, our conversations need to change too. Here's my conversation with Brené Brown.

Brené Brown: Hi!

Daniel Roth: Hey, Brené, thanks for joining us here today.

Brené Brown: Thanks for having me.

Daniel Roth: It is the end of the year. It is a year most of us will never forget, and even though we'd probably like to, I'd love to know how this year has either reinforced or challenged some of your research. Has this year changed at all how you think about vulnerability and shame? Is there anything new that has come out?

Brené Brown: You know, I think more than anything, it's been incredibly, it's been a painful and enlightening experience of validation of the research. You know, right when the pandemic started, I wrote a post across social, and it's on LinkedIn where I said, "This is going to be a tremendous experiment and experience in collective vulnerability, and unless we consciously choose courage over fear, we're going to come apart." You know, we're going to come apart individually and we're going to come apart collectively. And I think that we have seen kind of the best of us and the worst of us in this period of time. 

And I think the best of us, our better angels, have been connected to our willingness to be in discomfort and uncertainty and ambiguity without lashing out. And the worst of us, our worst instincts, have been to divide, lash out, hide behind ideological bunkers. And so I think we've seen it all. I think it just validates what we know about vulnerability and uncertainty and even about shame and fear. You know, I deeply believe that people are inherently good. And I also deeply believe that we are incredibly dangerous when we're in fear. They feel like opposites, but they're not, they're just a paradox of the, I think, the truth of who we are. We've got all of that inside each of us and all of that in the collective.

Daniel Roth: We're dealing with these incredible social challenges and life challenges, and I'm talking to you from my attic, and you're talking from your house. And before we went on, we talked about how there is no one to support any of us as we go through this right now.

 If you think about in the work environment, what people are going through right now, where so much, I feel like people were embracing some of your ideas around being vulnerable at work and starting to connect with each other in different ways. And now most of us are stuck at home or a lot of us have lost our jobs. Let's do the work from home component of it, how are people able to connect and to find that vulnerability when we're doing so much over video conferences like this?

Brené Brown: I've been working with leaders and teams and organizations through the pandemic, and God, we are so tired. I mean, I just think, weary, exhausted, depleted are all just truths of where we are, and I feel that way. I feel the exact, I feel that way too. And you know, I've never, I've always kind of worked maybe, I guess what we would consider remotely, and it's never been like this. I was on Zoom and doing that kind of stuff before everybody was on it, just because we, again we have a remote team, but this has been different. 

This has been unrelenting video conferencing, unrelenting aloneness, and unrelenting managing of multiple things in our lives. Every time I'm on Teams or on Zoom or on a video conference, there is a toddler crawling up someone's back. There's someone in tears. There's someone that needs to nurse. There's someone who's just, whose dog is going crazy. And we laugh about it, for sure. And we have found some common humanity there that I think has been a good thing, and I hope it doesn't go away, but we're also tired.

 And so I think we have to understand that while we're working, and like we're doing this interview, this is still screen time. And screen time still has some difficult components with it. I think some of us are doing better than others of us, you know, in terms of putting these meetings together. I think we still need to think about the intentionality of our gathering.

 I just did a podcast with Priya Parker who wrote a book called "The Art of Gathering." And boy, if there's ever been a time in the world to follow Priya Parker and her work, it's now because gathering needs to be intentional. It has to be purpose-driven. It has to have a very clear goal. And the better we can do that in this virtual environment, the better we'll be in meeting. So I think that's a really long way of saying we're pulling it off, but we're also physically, emotionally, and intellectually paying a tab for it.

Daniel Roth: Do you think there's going to be a hangover in 2021? What happens when we can start returning to work? Does this year change how we operate for good or for bad?

Brené Brown: There are so many different components to that question. So there's like, does this change the way we do business? And I think for a lot of organizations, yes. And I think there's interesting data right now that we have done this so long, that we have created new habits. We've created new ways of working. We've created, you know, things have changed. And what's working and effective about those things I think will change. 

Then there is, you know, how we gather, I think we will come back together in-person when possible with a new passion, a new sense of gratitude about being with each other physically. I know that I will never take that for granted again. And so I think there will not be our return to what we know pre-pandemic. And I think that's uncertainty and I think that's good news combined. I think the good news is we had two pandemics and we're still in the middle of both. One is a pandemic of, you know, COVID and the other's a pandemic of racial injustice. And I don't think we are going to go back to normal around either one of those things, which is we need to build new systems, better ways of being together, more equity and inclusivity and diversity. We need more representation. 

We have work in front of us that we are clear about. So I don't think that we'll be going back to normal, in terms of how we gather, when we gather, and how we work. But I do think as just a social species, I doubt that any of us who've lived through this will take for granted what it means to be able to be together, moving forward.

Daniel Roth: That's great. And even introverts are tired of being alone.

Brené Brown: I mean, yeah. And I am the introvertiest of the introverts. I would say that if you think about the way we work in the organization as a creative, when I'm writing a book, or we do a lot of creative processes with Teams and Post-It notes and moving things. And it's been hard. It's just been so hard.

Daniel Roth: I want to get back to your point about the second pandemic, this question about racial injustice, and what has been an awakening for many businesses, and a thank God we're finally talking about this for so many people. You talk so much about, I mean, obviously, your entire work is around vulnerability. There is a second kind of vulnerability and you can see it in business leaders when they are talking about topics that they've really never talked about at work before. Maybe they've been like, "Oh, my diversity and inclusion expert is going to handle this question. And I will just be here to answer the financial questions." But now leaders are being expected to come in and talk about these topics. 

They don't even know the right words for it sometimes. They're not sure if they're stepping in the mine holes or not. They're not sure when they're saying the right thing and when they're not, but their employees are demanding it of them. Do you have executives coming to you saying, "How do I talk about this thing?" What, what have you been thinking as you've been watching leaders start to have these conversations that are clearly uncomfortable for them?

Brené Brown: Yeah, I think that they're really uncomfortable and they're very difficult. You have the potential to really put your foot in it. But thank God. You know what I mean? Like one of the hallmarks of courageous leadership is the ability and willingness to have hard conversations and not tap out or delegate. And people do come to me and say, "How do we have these conversations?" And I refer them to people who've been doing this work, who are not white like me, people who have expertise and lived experiences in this work. And it's time to step up and put the conversation on the table, open that door. And it's time to step back and let people who have expertise and lived experience in this lead us. And both things can be true. And that's not the handoff to the DEI person. You know, that feels terrible to me. It is your people watch you struggle and learn, and unlearn and relearn and ask questions and be involved. 

It's not checking things off the list. And I would tell you that I have a podcast with Aiko Bethea who heads up diversity, inclusion, equity and belonging for our organization, and is also a, she's a facilitator in our Dare to Lead work. She and I did a podcast together where we did some really uncomfortable, hard role plays. 

And it was interesting to see the comments on LinkedIn when we posted that, 'cause people were like, "Oh my God, the role plays. We need more role plays." And we need to understand more about how to not take every easy exit ramp when things get uncomfortable. And Aiko taught me something really interesting, that has really changed a lot of what we do in our organization, which is what the leader brings in the room is what's allowed to be talked about. What the leader doesn't bring in the room, even by omission, is clearly translated to, "This is off limits." 

So as leaders, let me just tell you this. I have studied race, class, and gender for 20 years and taught it. And I have never had a conversation about race, class, or gender where I haven't had my ass handed to me by someone who knows better, or I haven't hit on a blind spot, where I haven't said something that, wow, really centered me in an uncomfortable way. That's all right. 

Because my motto is, "I'm not here to be right." I'm not here to show, "Wow, look what an ally I am." Or, "Look, look I'm a good white person." I'm not here to be right. I'm here to get it right. And that's what we need to build in our leaders and the culture of our organizations. We're not here to be right. We're here to get it right. We're not here to be knowers. We're here to be learners. And that's the bottom line, to be better people.

Daniel Roth: Do you recommend that people frame it that way? I mean, is it important to get up in front when you were talking to people to say like, "I might not be right about this, or we're going to go through this together," or do you just put it out there and then wait till you get the feedback?

Brené Brown: I think both, I think whatever feels, I mean I think the number one thing is whatever feels authentic and genuine to you is how you should do it. Don't fake vulnerability where there isn't any. Don't fake, you know? I'm always careful about the disclaimers. 'Cause like, you know, people armor up very quickly when they hear it. Like, "Hey, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm going to suck at this but I'm just going to lay it out there." Like people are like , you know, like Transformers, armored up. I think it's best to say, "I'm going to give this a shot because this matters." What's the intention? Lead with the intention. I don't know that I'm going to get this right, but we are going to get this as a company. We are going to get this right. And maybe the first step in getting this right is me doing it and not getting it right. But we're going to do this.

Daniel Roth - We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Brené offers tips on working through the emotions of job loss. 

(Our podcast ad break happens here)

And we're back. My guest today is professor and author Brené Brown. 2020 was an absolutely brutal year for job losses. I asked Brené for her thoughts and the feelings that come up around getting laid off and how to manage them.

Brené Brown: I think job loss is a huge, huge shame trigger for all of us, you know? And it really, it can be a huge shame trigger for everyone. And if you have on top of it, some kind of like family of origin messaging around provider, around perfectionism. And so let's just look at the elements of shame resilience. The elements of shame resilience are know what the trigger is and know how you're responding to it. Reach out and share your story with someone who can respond with empathy. Shame cannot survive empathy. And job loss right now is not about you. It's about a broken system. It's about a pandemic. It's about a pandemic that also revealed huge inequality fault lines across our countries and our organizations. 

So if you're feeling shame about your job loss, you need to talk to somebody, shame can't survive empathy. When you know, shame hates having words wrapped around it. It's powerful because it keeps you believing that you're alone. So the minute you share your story with someone who can meet you with some empathy, and say, hey. And empathy is not about relating to, if I don't have to have had the same experience that you've had to express empathy. I need to know the emotion that you feel. 

And so, you know, all of us know fear, rage, fury, powerlessness, grief like we all, you know, to be human and be adult. We've had those experiences. Heartbreak and so you need to talk about it. And you know, if you put shame in a Petri dish, it needs three things to grow exponentially into every corner and crevice of your life; judgment, secrecy, and silence. If you put the same amount of shame in a Petri dish, and you douse it with empathy, you create an environment that's hostile for shame. So we need to reach out and connect with other people, and talk about how we're feeling and know you're not alone. You're not alone.

Daniel Roth: What if you are someone who has adopted vulnerability, who has read your books, who understands what you're saying, who believes in your research, but they are working in teams around people who don't? Do you need them to come around? Or does that put you in a bad position to not have that armor when everyone else has it? What do you say about that?

Brené Brown: Let's break down what vulnerability is before we answer the question. So vulnerability though, definition based on the data, it's the emotion that we experience in times of uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. To be vulnerable is to show up when you can't control the outcome and you show up anyway. Yeah, you can't control what's going to happen. 

So when we talk about vulnerability, one thing I need to always get clear with people is sometimes we go halfway with our work. We're like, okay, vulnerability is not weakness. It's, you know, it's the birthplace of courage and trust and creativity and innovation, but we don't go the other half of the way, which is, it's not disclosure. It's not, you know, how many times do I cry at work? It's vulnerability without boundaries is not vulnerability. And so when people say, "I'm vulnerable at work, but other people are not," I always want an example of that. 

So what does that mean? So to me, vulnerability at work means you don't tap out of hard conversations. You hold people accountable instead of blaming or shaming. You don't talk about people. You talk to people, you don't act like the knower. You are the learner. You're not there to get it right. You're there to be right. You're not cynical. You're invested. You're not proving, you're improving. You're not hustling for worth. You understand your value. So when people say I'm surrounded by, so for example, let's just say, you and I are on a team together. And you have committed to this idea of daring leadership, which is, you know, vulnerable. 

Let me tell a quick story, just as way of explanation. I'm working with special forces military. And I asked a simple question because they're having a hard time linking vulnerability with courage, right? And I said, well, give me an example of courage on the battlefield or off. Give me a single example of courage that did not require uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure, one. And it was quiet and there was emotional response. And finally, one guy stood up and said, "Three tours. There is no courage on or off the battlefield without vulnerability." A week later, I'm working with Pete Carroll and the Seattle Seahawks, asked the same question, same answer. Nope. There is no courage. Can't give you a single example of courage. 

And now I've asked 10,000 people the question, give me an example of courage, something you did that was brave that didn't require wrestling with uncertainty, risk, and exposure, emotional exposure, you can't. And so when people say, "I'm vulnerable at work, but my colleagues aren't," I want to know what they're talking about. Are you personally disclosing at work and other people aren't? I've got a flag around that because what's your intention behind the disclosure? Are you personally disclosing to move work forward, to move psychological safety forward, to move trust forward? Or are you doing it just as a matter of proving that you can be vulnerable? 

I mean, like I read something on LinkedIn recently in my comment section where someone said, "I had to take a couple of days off work. When I went back into the first team meeting with my team, I took a risk and I explained that I had had a miscarriage. And we don't ever talk about things like that at work. And I'm one of the only women in my team. And it was hard. And by the time it was over, everybody in my team was in tears. People were sharing their own struggles around fertility or miscarriages, and we're not the same team we were a month ago." 

And you have to evaluate for yourself, is this a safe place to share? Is this an okay boundary? Is there a safe enough container that we trust each other? But the thing is that we are human, and every leader I've ever worked with in my life has said, "I need all of everybody." You know, there is not enough innovation, not enough trust, not enough creativity. I need all of everyone. Well, if you need all of everyone, then you better build a culture that supports the wholeness of our humanity, and build a psychological safety so we can be whole.

Daniel Roth: So important to really understand what the vulnerability is and what it's not. And it sounds like what you're saying is that there is no way to stand out from the crowd and be vulnerable in a way that harms you. Doing, leaning into this idea will make you a better leader, will make your team better. It will make your team operate better. So you're not suffering by being vulnerable within a place where there are people aren't vulnerable. People will come to you. They will come over to your side because they want to be around a leader like you.

Brené Brown: Or they won't. So let's just do a quick role play for them. So let's say we walk out of a meeting and you say to me, Dan, "I think that idea that we just heard was bull. It's never going to work." So you say that to me.

Daniel Roth: (role play) That idea was bull. That is never going to work, Brené.

Brené Brown: (role play) Yeah, I'm concerned, Dan, because they asked who had concerns about it and none of us said anything. And here's the deal. I'm happy to go back in there with you and have a bigger conversation about why we think it's not going to work, but I'm not going to have a meeting outside of the meeting. So that's an example of vulnerability. I'm going to show up. I'm going to have a hard conversation with you. 'Cause you know, meetings outside the meetings the dirty yeses, that, that kills culture. So vulnerability, I always wonder when people say, "I'm doing it, but no one," you know, it means courage. It means saying, "Look, I get it. I've voiced that I was a little worried about it, but if you feel that strongly, let's go back in there, brother and you know, lay it out for them. But I will not do this with you." Or yeah, just honest.

Daniel Roth: We had Mary Barra on here very soon after she had become the CEO of GM. And one of the things that she insisted on was she wanted everyone in the room to talk. And she said, she was because of GM, the culture was you nod, and you say yes, and then you go and you do exactly the opposite, or you just forget it all. And she was like, "Nope I'm going to make people commit in meetings. I'm going to make them give themselves here. And I'm going to pull them off the wall and make them talk and I'm going to hold them accountable." And she's really changed the culture by doing that. So it sounds exactly what you're talking about.

Brené Brown:- I mean, it's a great example, and the thing is let's go to Project Aristotle at Google, you know, long-term study around the most highest performing groups, not the highest lovey-dovey, we care about you, each other groups, the highest performing groups at Google. What did they share in common? Number one trait of high:performing teams? Vulnerability, trust, and psychological safety. So you can say, "You know what, moving forward, everyone has a point of view." But if you haven't built a container or psychological safety for that, you can't ask people to do that. So that's your job.

Daniel Roth: I would love to talk to you about career advice. You had an unusual start of your career, and you went to college, you dropped out of college, you traveled, you took some odd jobs. You didn't start at UT until you were 27, if I'm not mistaken, is that right?

Brené Brown: Yeah. I think somewhere around there, yeah.

Daniel Roth: All right, so what kind of advice do you give people who are just starting their career, and do they need to know exactly where they're going? Do you recommend the path you took or what would you say?

Brené Brown: Two words, nothing wasted. That's my career advice. 

You know, my daughter is a senior in college and she said, she called me, during her first semester. And she said, "Oh my God. You know that whole thing you told me about college? It's not true, everybody knows what they're going to be except for me, it's so hard. It's cringy, it's awkward." And I said, "If you know what you're going to be at 18, I'm not paying for school." Like, you've got to be curious. I want you to take every class that seems interesting to you. 

Going to school and having college paid for is a privilege. And I get that because I didn't have that. And I worked my way through, I cleaned houses. I bartended, I did it all. And I'd had a long, circuitous route for sure. Dropped in and dropped out, hitchhiked through Europe. I just did some dumb and fun things. But the reason why I tell people that, and I know people are under pressure, people are like, well that's a luxury to, you know, curiosity and exploration is a luxury. Well, we need to change the world where that is a function of privilege because everyone deserves to be curious and be and I want to build a world where that's okay. 

And I mean, I think, you know, the first thing we'll have to do is dismantle, we'll have to attack poverty and white supremacy in equal measure for that to happen. But I think I'm good at what I do. And I think I owe as much of that to seven years of bartending, as I do to nine PhD hours in multivariate linear statistics. Nothing is wasted and you've got to stay and be curious.

You know, I talk about in Daring Leadership. What we take, we take off our armor. 'Cause it's not fear that gets in the way of daring leadership, it's armor. It's how we self-protect. Right? And so people are like, "Oh God, I'm going to be naked at work. Like no armor, what am I going to do?" And I'm like, "We're going to replace it with grounded confidence." And grounded confidence is a combination of practicing new ways of showing up, like rumbling with vulnerability and curiosity. Curiosity, it's the great skill set of the future. Be curious. 

I have just tell you really quick. I just did this event for a global construction company and I started talking to the group, and it was virtual 'cause it was during the pandemic and they're like, "How do you know so much about construction?" I'm like, "Oh, I used to work in construction. I didn't wear tools, but I was in charge of progressive billing for a dry wall, an industrial drywall company." 

And then, you know, I'll be doing a talk with, I mean, who knows what? I've had a lot of life experience. I think about, you know, Steve Jobs who studied fonts, and said, "Boy, there's some fonts that make me feel peaceful and at home and some fonts that are jarring." And you know, and empathy, design, curiosity, try it all. But when you try it and it's time to leave it, and you think, "Damn, I have two years over there." Nothing wasted.

Daniel Roth: Yeah. I got to say, when you started talking about nothing wasted, I thought you were saying don't waste any moments. But you're saying nothing that you do is wasted. Everything will count-

Brené Brown: Nothing's wasted! Towards where you're going. That's awesome.

- Yes! Yes! Nothing is wasted.

Daniel Roth: Well, Brené, thank you so much for spending the time with us here today. Thanks for all the contributions you make on LinkedIn and beyond. I really think you've given a lot of support to a lot of people going through very tough times this year. And hopefully, we'll have you back to keep talking about how the world's changing and what we all need to be doing to make it better.

Brené Brown: Yeah, you're welcome. And you know, I think we're, I love that quote, "We're all just walking each other home." Like that's, it's it's me helping people, but it's people helping me too. It's just, we don't have to do it by ourselves. We were never meant to.

Daniel Roth: That was research professor and author Brené Brown. Brené's presence on our show this week really just connected with members. The comment section lit up with incisive, tough questions, and they happen at a pretty massive scale. It was very clear that Brené was someone that people didn't just want to hear from, they needed to hear from. It was really terrific. 

Toward the end of our conversation, I asked Brené what career advice she had for members and she responded, "Nothing wasted." I find that so provocative that every part of your experience counts to make you who you are. Don't think that something you have gone through was a waste of time or not useful, or you shouldn't have done it. You have to think about how to apply it. So as we head into the closing days of 2020, this incredibly long year, I'd love to know how that idea applies to you right now. 

What's your "nothing wasted" from 2020? COVID has changed so much about how we live and work, if we are working right now. I want to know what you learned about yourself, your professional life, or your goals for 2021. Tell me over on LinkedIn, write a post about it and use the hashtag #ThisIsWorking. I can't wait to see what you have to say. 

As always to get more news and insights, you can also follow our main LinkedIn page which you can find by searching for LinkedIn News. If you know someone who might find this conversation with Brené valuable, please, please share with them. You can get a link on your favorite podcast platform, or share the newsletter, which you can find on my profile. Thank you. "This Is Working" is a production of LinkedIn. The podcast was produced by Sarah Storm with help from Dave Pond and Michaela Greer. Joe DiGiorgi mixed our show. Florencia Iriondo is head of original video and audio. Dave Pond is our technical director. I'm Daniel Roth, LinkedIn's Editor-in-Chief. Stay strong, see you in the new year.