Quicklook technology assessment topmod software_ccchittim

Claudia Chittim Manifold Technologies Usability Report
Quicklook Technology Evaluation for TopMod3d
"The subdivision of surfaces in software is here to stay because of their wide applicability
and usefulness and there's more to come." Dr. Chandrajit Bajaj, Computational Applied
Mathematics, Chair in Visualization, University of Texas
Claudia Chittim

Product Information:
TopMod is a 3D modeling platform which creates 3D models and allows for advanced subdivision
of polygon surfaces. The software was created by Texas A&M students at the TAMU VizLab. The
license is currently owned by TAMU's Visualization Science labs and creator Dave Morris and the
A&M OTC. In TopMod, a user can create an organic geometric shape that features closed surfaces
ideal for modeling 3D objects of 3D printing. The program is currently a free download from
www.topmod3d.org. From April 2008 to July 2009 there have been over 17,000 visits to the
download page. Primary research was collected in the form of a usability study revealed that
users would pay $50-100 per license at its current state. (see Appendix 1). Secondary research
from an online survey revealed that users of TopMod use a variety of other 3D modeling
platforms which would compete with TopMod in terms of program attributes but not in terms of
price. (See appendix 2). That which makes unique from competitors is that it offers 35 pre-set
algorithms to subdivide surfaces for polygons. Each algorithmic function on the "remeshing"
menu offers a dialogue box which allows the user to define the attributes of the remeshing
function. TopMod offers 6 basic primitive shapes that include a cube, octahedron, tetrahedron,
dodecahedron, icosahedrons and a geodisc dome in its shelf menu. TopMod was designed with
a high data compression rate for downloading which makes it easier to download from a website.
Given the high rate of downloading compression and the quick remeshing features TopMod has
unique features unlike other 3D modelling software.
Technology Description:
TopMod was launched in 2007 with the purpose of offering a free open source 3D modeling
platform. The program features a highly valued dialogue for mesh modeling primitive shapes
using pre-set algorithms. The end product to the end user is a 3D modeling platform that offers
a variety of advanced geometric surface manipulation functions on primitive surfaces. Primitive
shapes that are created in TopMod can either be pushed into 3D printing, subdividing polygon
surfaces for engineering prototypes or biomedical models, video game modeling or motion
picture modeling. Objects can be exported as .obj, stl, live graphics 3d, and LG3D. For all
entertainment needs, each TopMod object would have to be exported into a 3D compositing
program such as Maya, or Houdini. Once placed into a compositing software, TopMod objects
can be given a shade or texture which brings "realistic" qualities to the object. For 3D printing
purposes, TopMod can be pushed into a 3D printer to create a water tight 3D mold for objects
like jewelry or metallic sculptures.
Potential Benefits:
TopMod can model primitive objects and re-define surface geometry to meet certain industry
standards where competing technologies take more time. It features a rapid downloading speed
and export features which allow greater compatibility with competing commercial applications.

The interface and functions are similar to that of other graphics programs so learning new keys
and menu functions are easily translated. Finally, TopMod offers a variety of algorithms that are
preset into a menu option. Each algorithm features a dialogue box that allows for specific
manipulation of each surface. These algorithms are currently being developed by researchers at
the TAMU visual science lab so more can be added to the current menu options.
Market Interest:
From April 1, 2008 to July 27, 2009 there are over 75,000 visits to TopMod3d.org (download page)
from 160 countries. In a drill down of geographic origin we find that the largest volume of visits
came from the EU with 26,930, then second in the US with 15,779 visits.
We conducted 1 usability evaluation with 4 participants and 1 focus group with 5 participants
(See Appendix B), 3 separate interviews (See Interviews Appendix A) with industry leaders in
motion picture production, architectural visualization and 1 professor in applied mathematics
and visualization. Our focus group target participants were Autodesk Users in the Austin chapter
where we recruited architectural visualization specialists following the Austin Game Developers
conference. All focus groups and usability evaluations were designed to collect qualitative
feedback on TopMod software to improve functions and terminology of the user interface. The
results of our testing transferred brand awareness, collected qualitative feedback and also
gathered feedback for pricing strategy.1 Following the usability and focus group evaluations, we
1
See Appendix B and C for Focus Group Results which include copies of pre and post usability
questionnaires.
Visits to Download Page on TopMod3d.org from 2008-2009

asked participants how much they would be willing to spend for each license. A majority of
participants reported they would pay from $50-100 or more per license. With modifications
however, participants may be willing to pay more. 2 During the Association for Computer
Machinery SIGGRAPH conference, our team discovered 3D printer companies already using
TopMod for jewelry and plastic ware 3D printing. Peter Wiijmarchausen CEO of Shapeways.com
said: "If you go to our database and click on the materials and images, you'll find a lot already in
TopMod. We take the model and print this in our materials and ship it out to you."3
US Market
In the US alone we can see that the greatest market interest was generated from California where
they received 3,060 visits. Based on the statistics below we have found that the largest volume
of software downloads came from the West and East Coast which have high concentrations of
the entertainment industry cores of production and creative media production. This would match
our hypothesis in that TopMod would be attractive to gaming and motion picture professionals
who require surface subdivision of polygons.
EU Market
Currently, the greatest visits to the download page of TopMod3d.org are from Germany. France
and the UK are also generating over 4,000 visits per year to the download page. All the countries
mentioned above nurture creative studios in terms of architecture, motion picture and game
2
Participants for this were recruited via Linkedin and also from industry alliance connections.
For the second usability evaluation we blasted 4 email campaigns then travelled to Los Angeles
to interview entertainment industry professionals.
3
Interview with Peter Weikmarshausen, CEO of www.Shapeways.com (ACM SIGGRAPH, 2009)

production. In addition, Peter Weijmarshausen CEO of Shapeways.com revealed a need for
TopMod at SIGGRAPH (the annual convention for computer and machinery). Peter revealed a
large user base that was exporting models to his software www.shapeways.com in Belgium. In
the software he would price the object then manufacture this in metal, plastic or nylon.
To validate our understanding of the future of subdivision modeling software we include UT
professor of Applied Mathematics Dr. Chandra Bajaj’s comment: “the future of subdividing
polygons is here to stay, however the ability to combine the visual programs with engineering or
scientific specifics will need to be improved."4
Development of Status and Technology
TopMod3d.org is currently a download that is free to download from TopMod3d.org. The
software is actively developed in 2 ways: monitoring web metrics and responding to User needs
on the website from the online survey and also contact page. We have also collected results from
primary and secondary research from usability evaluations, several interviews with
entertainment technology professionals from Los Angeles, Austin and this year's SIGGRAPH
conference in New Orleans. and 1 focus group at the Autodesk Users Group forum in Austin.
These evaluations were conducted to provide developers enough feedback to develop the
software into a more commercially viable application.
Patent Status of Technology
4
Dr. Bajaj is director of the UT visualization science lab at the Center for Applied Mathematics
also oversees creation of free software however, the level of commercial viability of the
interfaces are limited to students of their program. (See Interview Appendix A and DVD for
recorded interview).

TopMod3d was developed at A&M by Visualization Science students as an open source program.
It is free and available for download. There is currently no provisional patent filed for the program
and developers are seeking investment to develop this product for A&M.
Competing Technologies and Competition
Compared to all the other 3D platforms, TopMod does only 2 things that outstand the
competition: create rapid subdividisions of polygon surfaces and create "water-tight" models for
3D printing. From 2005 till present, the 3D market has been saturated by demands from 3D
studios and graphic educational schools. Currently, Autodesk and Modo hold the largest market
shares for 3D software sales for visual science and entertainment. In 2007, Autodesk acquired
Alias (maker of Maya). Autodesk has acquired many product lines as plug-ins since 2004 which
have aided its sustainability in the competitive market. Not only has Autodesk become the largest
provider of 3D software license sales and has formed strong partnerships with Intel and AMD
which buffer hardware needs. According to Autodesk’s 2009 annual report, “The market for
model-based 3D design products remains underpenetrated and will continue to be an important
new business source.”5 While this appears to be the case in the long run, the 3D modeling and
animation software market is currently contracting, shrinking from $237 million in 2008 to $221
million in 2009. According to a recent study by Jon Peddle Research, this contraction is driven
primarily by the downturn in overall economic conditions and the 3D software market will grow
begin to grow again 2010.6
Despite “street credit” value with programs like Maya in the 3D animation world, the highly
priced licenses are common for larger companies but unaffordable to smaller studios.
Competitors like MODO and Maya face trials of supporting large IT sectors with these large and
multifaceted programs.
A recent review of smaller 3D platforms at a 3D software convention (SIGGRAPH) looked at
companies like Bonzai and 3Dview and found that their licenses were more affordable than
Autodesk. While they are cheaper their functions and platforms serve different needs. All of the
competitors did not offer the ability to generate rapid polygon subdivisions as well as 3D output
for 3D printing.
5
www.autodesk.com
6
John Peddie Report

In terms of comparing the attributes of these programs, the following chart measures those 3D
software programs which compete with TopMod:
Autodesk's Maya for example, has polygon modeling functions however they do not subdivide
surfaces as quickly as TopMod. For example, in Maya, to subdivide surfaces to the extent of
TopMod, one would have to change the attributes in the attribute menu to subdivide surfaces.
This could take hours of time. Where other competitors are gaining greater market share are for
those programs that offer animation, rendering, lighting and texturing functions. The chart above
explains where competing software outrank TopMod in those certain attributes. Those areas
where TopMod outranks competitors is in it's "remeshing" menu by offering several pre-set
algorithms that subdivide surfaces greater than other polygon modeling software.

Pricing TopMod License v. Other Competitors Licenses
Barriers to Market Entry
Barriers to entry in the software market can be viewed as low and high. The start-up costs
associated with entering the market are manageable. It is easy for a company to enter the market
with a specialized product. The company’s chances for long term success however are slim, and
depend on many other factors dealing with IT support and building a sound company structure
around product. The software industry is dominated by a few large companies which produce
the major software packages for commercial studios. These systems are only compatible with
certain programs making entry to the market difficult. The top operating systems are well
established and have high switching costs associated with them. 3D configuration systems are
considered some of the most difficult to implement and add-on features will encounter existing
competitors unlikely to yield territory. Many 3D startups have copied scripts from other software
and thus simple piracy is a barrier. In some major cases the drive for remedies are sought in the
courts. More cases are predicted to continue and if TopMod were re-built, a valid licensing
management tool would need to be integrated into the new platform. However given the cheap
licensing costs, product pirating may not be as much an issue.
This is not to infer 3D systems and associated products cannot find specific market validation
however, the best ROI might come from joining product leaders and sell their innovation as a
“add-on” feature. More importantly, this arena of software has seen its share of casualties since

many smaller firms don’t make the changes the market demands, nonetheless, depending upon
users needs, customized products will work.
The following are barriers listed for TopMod:
 Dominance of market by a few well defined company’s
 Piracy will continue
 Open source Web based downloads on the rise
 Oracle, Sun and now Goggle plan to offer inexpensive add-on feature to existing
customer with significant upgrade to current programs.
 Computational complexity downstream cost
 Yahoo’s interest in dash board access for 3D under new CEO Carol Bartz, former
President and CEO at Autodesk….attempts to maintain control of the market and
pending merger discussions with Microsoft.
 Questionable patent status and coverage
The Federal Trade Commission cited patents as a barrier to entry for the software industry
claiming that they hamper competition in the industry (FTC report). The industry evolves so
quickly that a seven year patent basically gives a developer of a certain process a monopoly on
the market. This is why most of the new entrants arrive with highly specialized programs.
Recommendations:
Due to the extensive market testing and recommendations we collected from TopMod users, we
believe the product is worth developing and selling at a lower cost. We recommend the following
3 options for TopMod: create a spin-out that can partner with hardware scanning or printing
companies and create 2 versions of the software (1 for bio-medical visualization and 1 for
entertainment purposes). Both would be created from the core up. During this whole time keep
the TopMod website open as a portal to remain free on the open web for testing and to create
brand awareness. The second recommendation is to sell the "remeshing menu" as a plug-in
immediately to Autodesk's Maya or AutoCAD and take the profits to fund a newer license which
would fund the re-development of TopMod. The third recommendation is to keep the product
within A&M for incubation at visual science labs and allow for further developments to take
place. Eventually this option will create an academic license that visualization science labs can
license.

Spinout: Re-build and sell this as a disruptive product
The time is perfect for a low-end disruptive product to saturate the 3D market. The incubation
phase however, may take longer than 1 year for product development and re-branding
strategies. This will also require acquiring funding for a full-time IT support staff and office space.
A. Entertainment Application (Top EAS) for the Entertainment and Architectural Industry)
We recommend re-programming TopMod to fix the bugs, add a shading and animation platform
in TopMod with a render setting and design grid which would integrate quickly into production
pipelines at architectural studios, Sony Imageworks, or Dreamworks. Based on our research from
usability, focus groups and interviews we recommend re-building the interface slightly by adding
side menu shelves and changing the terminology of the interface menu to appeal to whichever
function is needed in the industry: rendering, animation, modeling or editing.7
B. Bio-Medics Application called TopMedics (an application for genetic modeling and
prosthetics)
Another recommended platform would appeal specifically to building models used in medical
surgeries or for visualizing genomes. The Computational Geometry Algorithms Library in France
can create more algorithms to compliment shaping helixes based on large inputs of data for
genetic data visualization.8 In an interview with Dr. Fabri (CO of Geometry Factory) he did
mention he would be willing to work with our team on a plug in that would complement
translating large data sets of genetic codes into visual structures. In addition, funding for these
platforms can be easily acquired from the NSF and medical funding entities under the current
administration.
Innovations for Partnerships with TopEAS and TopMedics
There are 2 other low-end disruptive products that could compliment TopMod that would help
stand clearly from competitors: Exact Metrology creates a 3D handheld scanning device with a
unit price beginning at $1500.00.9 The ability to scan an object and import this into TopMod for
product modifications would be useful for contact measurement, reverse engineering, non-
contact measurement and long-range scanning of building interiors and for creation of medical
prosthetics. The second recommendation is to build a strong alliance with 3D printing companies
7
Please see Appendices for reported recommendations.
8
www.geometryfactory.com (See Interviews Appendix)
9
www.exactmetrology.com

like Shapeways.com or RedEye Arc to offer 3D printing for jewelry and instant design
communication needs. 10
Plug-in: Sell TopMod’s Remeshing Plugin
Sell the “Remeshing” menu as a plug-in to Autodesk or any major studio’s proprietary software
systems. There are companies who can license the product as a plug-in. ETRI (www.etri.re.kr)
from Korea hosts a research division that supports selling plug-ins for 3D platforms.11 Their
products range from non-photorealistic animation to fluid simulation used in entertainment. If
they reviewed and preferred TopMod, they would buy the license and re-shape this for plug-in
sales to larger 3D software companies. From 2001 to the present, Autodesk has acquired a
multitude of 3D product lines from companies on a global scale. 12 Their corporate structure has
generally developed to include former executives from HP, Micorsoft and Sun systems. A recent
conversation with a 3D programmer at SIGGRAPH recommended that we stay away from the
Autodesk Maya plug-in market, because they are now delving into the Macintosh space and it
may introduce compatibility issues and increased development costs as they change their APIs
over the next couple of years. We noticed over the last year an increase in release of Macintosh
versions from Autodesk and given their infrastructure is highly integrated with Microsoft for the
past 12 years they are definitely having to revamp a lot of their code which could delay re-coding
processes.
Incubate at the Universities and Franchise Later: Have the Visualization Science Lab at A&M
Endorse the product along with UT and Build a business model
At this state, it would be recommended to negotiate with software creators license rights and
put the software back into an incubation phase with alumni and creators of the Visualization
Science program at A&M. Since TopMod is already open-source and part of the script can be
easily copied at its current state, it is questionable if creators will be willing to re-create TopMod
and whether students would be paid as full-time IT support. Also given the rapid pace of
visualization software technologies and turnover of students in these programs, it is risky to re-
develop TopMod within the university.
10
3D printing companies can build models that are accurate replicas of project models for architecture and
products.
11
The Electronics and Telecommunications Institute Research Division
12
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=3235534

Interviews Appendix
The following individuals were interviewed for product feedback and licensing13:
Jeffry Grigsby (Architect and VFX Artists) (Los Angeles)
Greg Downing (Co-Founder of XRez and Sony Image Works) (Los Angeles)
Darren Krumweide (Academic Director for the Gnomon Workshop) (Los Angeles)
Eugene Hsu (Video Game Marketer) (Austin)
Dr. Chandra Bajaj (Chair of Applied Mathematics School, UT) (Austin)
Daniel McFarland (Architect and VFX Specialist) (Austin)
Jeremy Sternberg (Digital Domain Animator) (Los Angeles)
John Peterson (Semiconductor Designer) (Austin)
Chris Petty (Level Designer) (Austin)
Larry Klein (Architect) (Austin)
Joe Pizzini (3D Animator) (Austin)
Patrick Byers (3D graphics and consultant) (Austin)
Dave Morris (Creator of TopMod) (Dallas)
Blake (A&M OTC) (College Station, Texas)
Brett Cornwell (A&M OTC) (College Station, Texas)
Peter Weijmarshausen (CEO of Shapeways.com) (Belgium)
Dr. Andreas Fabri, (Chief Officer of Geometry Factory) (France)
Interview with TopMod Engineer
1 pm , Austin, Texas in person interview with Dave Morris
July 4th, 2009
The goal of this session was to discover more about the incentives to create TopMod and
explore any connection with its "water-tight" surface modeling. The next objective was to cover
areas of commercial application specifically with reference to current license agreements.
Team VerTex: Introduction to Dave. We would like to know what inspired you to develop this
program? What inspired the "water-tight" surface structure?
Dave Morris: Brett with the OTC is who actually put us in touch with the commercial prospects
of creating a commercial platform like TopMod and also setting up a business in 3 ways. 2 of
these would complement the university because they would setup infinite licensing and
business platforms. The inspiration to make a "water tight" surface was inspired by 3D printing.
We don't want any water seeping out of the surfaces when pouring a substance into a cast that
is created by such printers.
13
All other interviews are included as usability results or focus groups in Appendices A, B and C.

Team Vertex: Where are you currently in terms of commercializing the software?
Dave Morris: At the moment, the coding is open source, to licensing the product is a step that
we need to take. In addition, if we want this as a stand-alone application then we need to
create a plug-in for this to sell to a 3D company so this would require re-programming.
Vertex: What are your current expenses or where do you foresee the greatest mount of your
budget to commercialize the software?
DM: Licensing is expensive. With FlexLM. it is more than we can currently afford to pay.
Vertex: We can always run a cost comparison of software issues that would be better matches
for your product in our quicklooks report.
DM: That would be great.
Vertex: What other competitors are in your market?
DM: Modo and Maya. TopMod is cheaper than the others.
Vertex: what about open source? APIs? What is the source code.
DM: Online is the open source version. Since it's already open source code, if someone is
curious, they just many decide to look it up and copy it. If we decide to produce the software in
a commercial version and sell it, then someone could do this.
Vertex: Given the above information and prior research, we believe there are really 2 new
markets that could render accurate payment by year 1 of product exposure: the academic
market and the entertainment industry, the final market with be science and engineering.
Vertex: Where do you really want to see this product go?
DM: To create a commercial package from ground up, then sell this back to the school and also
potential buyers in the entertainment and other markets.
Vertex: So re=building the program to keep the coding in-house and keeping the same
functionalities and building a license to prevent hacking the license.
DM: Yes. QT , where we stored the programming, was bought out by Nokia. Do we want a
home-grown management system.
Vertex: Does the commercial package include selling the license on DVDs?
DM: No. Just downloads.

Vertex: Our job will be to create a package that will help you bring this product to market.
DM: Thank you.
July 20th, 2009
Interview with Dr. Chandra Bajaj
UT, Chair of Computer Applied Mathematics Department
Vertex: Why is Visualization software important?
Dr. Chandra Bajaj: One, visualization impacts all the sciences, all the fields of engineering and
perhaps all the fields of data. There is structured and unstructured data. There are techniques
and tools to process this data. There are several tools but they are all specific to the domain
and type of input available.
Vertex: Is there s need for programs like TopMod that can subdivide polygon surfaces?
Dr. Chandra Bajaj: Subdivision is a very powerful technique for what we call humanoid shapes
and free form shapes that you would perhaps need more for the visual arts as well as you could
utilize when you don't require engineering accuracy. So it's a very quick way of taking just about
piece wise linear representations of just about any sculpted surface and quickly reproducing a
visually appealing smooth surface rendition for it. So it's why Pixar and Disney have a plug-in for
subdividing surfaces into their modeling programs.
Now can it be used for engineering specific? There is still a lot of work that needs to be done for
precise engineering analysis but there is already some work that has begun. So subdivision of
surfaces are here to stay because of their wide applicability and usefulness and there's more to
come.
Vertex: Thank you.
July 26th, 2009
Interview with Jeremy Sternberg
Visual Effects, Animation, Writing and Rendering
Digital Domain, LA, CA
10+ Years with Digital Domain
Masters in Visualization TAMU 1994
Vertex: Would you find this software beneficial as a tool at Digital Domain?

Jeremy: Yes. Well, I was speaking with a friend from Lucas Arts about it and
we both agree that it allows users to make shapes like no
others....for example, Lucas Arts could use it in Clone Wars for
unique alien planet structures, buildings, etc...the question is the
animation of objects. The way the topology is mapped in 2D makes it
difficult to texture. I mean, you could make something very
interesting, abstract geometry but the workflow, the pipeline breaks
down. The modeling dept hands primitive renderings to the texturing
dept who would then trace the surfaces then break up shapes, then it
goes to the linking dept to animate...may be a hurdle. This process
would take any rendering way out of TopMod and the ability to plug
into animation pipeline is important, possible but far removed from
original model. And Modeling is a narrow part of the pipeline.
Interoperation is a bit difficult and price should account for efforts
taken to integrate intoplanning architecture.
What do you think about commercial viability and pricing?
Go low end $50-100 range and get it out fast to work out bugs and
launch improved version at slightly higher pricepoint later. Sell it
as a stand-alone .obj extension program that will allow for export to
other programs. Maya is like a Swiss Army Knife, something for
everything. Top Mod would be one tool in the SAN. Maya came out of
the gates at around $12,000 and that price has dropped to $2,000 - so
TopMod should be a proportional fraction of that - the one tool price.
Everybody in industry is tightening budgets, including 3D production
departments. SIGGRAPH during the boom was teeming with give-aways and
luxury but now even it is lower-budget...
Digital Domain is a visual effects and animation company based in
Venice, Los Angeles, California. The company is known for creating
state-of-the-art digital imagery for feature films, television
advertising, interactive visual media and the video game industry.
Digital Domain also provides technical software solutions for the
visual effects and animation industry.
Awards:
Digital Domain's business units have been recognized with awards from
many top industry organizations.
As of March 2009, Digital Domain has won seven Academy Awards: three
for Best Visual Effects (Titanic, What Dreams May Come, The Curious
Case of Benjamin Button);[7] and four for Scientific and Technical
Achievement for its proprietary technology--i.e., for Track
(proprietary tracking software),[8] for Nuke (proprietary compositing
software)

August 6, 2009
Interview with Peter Weijmarchausen
CEO of Shapeways at SIGGRAPH, 2009
Vertex: Please tell us about your product and your company?
Peter: We are based in Belgium. We print models that people send to us in metal, nylon or plastic.
You simply upload the product and our software will price it for you. On our software you can
make your own model in 3D and we print it for you so you have a gifts in minutes.
Vertex: What formats will you accept for 3D printing?
Peter: You can export to STL or Collada and upload with Maya, Rhino, Max, Blender, AutoCad,
ProEngineer, Daz and TopMod.
Vertex: So people are already uploading products in TopMod? What do you think of TopMod for
user friendliness.
Peter: We have many products that are uploaded in TopMod and we like the models that come
from their because of the accuracy in the polygon shapes. It's already water tight too so it's easier
for printing. If you go to "here" and type in TopMod look at how many shapes come up in
TopMod. So we print it to you in metal, and we ship it to your home. Check it out!"
Vertex: Do you have a minimum quantity?
Peter: $25.00.
Vertex: Would you consider endorsing TopMod on your website or collaborating for future
business?
Peter: Yes. We can host a competition for designer models and have TopMod be a competitor in
next year's competition.
Vertex: Thank you.
August 6, 2009
Interview with Andreas Fabri, PhD
Chief Officer of the Geometry Factory at SIGGRAPH, 2009
www.geometeryfactory.com
Vertex: Could you build an algorithm that maps human genomes?

Fabri: If there are large amounts of data to compute, I can find a way.
Vertex: What do you currently do?
Fabri: I sell algorithms to CAN, telecome, GIS, medical companies and for oil and gas.
Vertex: Would you consider advising us on an algorithm that could output a visual model of a
genetic sequence?
Fabri: Yes.

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