The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 096 Shep Hyken

THE ENTREPRENEUR’S RADIO SHOW
Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs that Grow Your Business
Copyright © 2012, 2013 The Entrepreneur’s Radio Show Page 1 of 26
Episode 96 - Shep Hyken
In this episode Travis speaks with renowned speaker, best-selling author, and successful
entrepreneur Shep Hyken. Shep‟s vast experience and knowledge of the business have helped
large corporations as well as budding entrepreneurs with their business throughout the years.
His speeches and books give valuable insight on the importance of customer service and the
role your employees play in the goal of enriching your service.
Shep and Travis give a lot of useful information on how to create a business that‟s both
profitable and sustainable. Shep gives his insight on the value of customer service and how to
ensure customer loyalty through quality of work and feedback. He also gives his top 5 things
that entrepreneur‟s take note of in ensuring customer service for your clients. These are just
some of the things that are what‟s in store in this episode of the Entrepreneur‟s Radio Show.
Creating a Great Customer Experience to Grow Your Biz
Travis: Hey, it's Travis Lane Jenkins, welcome to episode number 96 of the Entrepreneur's
Radio Show, a production of rockstarentrepreneurnetwork.com. Today, I'm going to introduce
you to Shep Hyken. Shep is a rock star entrepreneur for several reasons, and I think you'll
agree with me when I give you a little bit of his background. Shep is a New York Times and Wall
Street Journal bestselling author, and he's been inducted into the National Speaker's
Association Hall of Fame for lifetime achievement in the speaking profession. Shep helps
companies build loyal relationships with their customers and their employees, which I believe is
a key weakness for many, many businesses, actually most businesses. In this interview Shep's
going to share his top 5 things that you should be focusing on related to that topic. Also, as I
mentioned in the last episode, I'm going to do a better job of thanking you guys for taking the
time to write a review for me. And I'm going to read off a couple of the top level comments. I
won't read the entire comment because it would take too much time. But
definingmomentstv.com left a 5 star rating. And the title said "Love the format and show". Thank
you for that. So, I appreciate you taking the time to do that. MISurfer left a 5 star rating and
wrote how others did it... Thank you for that review and taking the time. And then Subu gave a 5
star review and wrote "Excellent!!" And so again, I'm going to take a little time out each show
and thank each of you for taking the time to do that for me so I really, really appreciate it. Just in
case you don't know, the reviews impact how many people find our show on iTunes, and the
more reviews the better off we are. Plus it gives me a chance to get some feedback on what you
like about the show and even if there's opportunities for me to make any improvements, we're
always looking for a way to do things better. So, if you would take a few minutes and take a little

time, and write us a review, and give us a rating based on your feelings about the show, it'd
really mean a lot to me. And of course, I'll return the favor and say thank you on the air.
One other thing, be sure and stay with us until the very end because I want to share some
inspiration with you beyond what we talk about within this interview. Although I have a question
for you before we get started, and the question is this. Would you like for me to personally look
at your business and help you get unstuck with whatever your current challenges are? If the
answer's yes then I want to remind you that I have a section on the website where you can ask
me anything about your business, marketing, management, building team, pricing. Really
anything that you feel like's holding you back from that next level of success. All you have to do
is go to rockstarentrepreneurnetwork.com and on the right hand side you'll see a little speaker.
You just click on it. It's like leaving a voice mail. Give me the background of your business, who
you are, what type of business and then tell me what the problem is. What I'm going to do is I'm
going to start releasing short episodes where I answer your questions on the show. So, I'll keep
your last name private, but I'll give you a little coaching and hopefully help you get unstuck and
move things to the next level. Also, remember that there's two ways that you can take these
interviews with you on the go, through iTunes or Stitcher. Stitcher is a great option for anyone
that doesn't use iTunes no matter what phone you have. It's an app that allows you to live
stream the shows whenever you're ready to listen to them. Both iTunes and Stitcher have kind
of a clunky search function. So, I've placed them on the menu bar at
rockstarentrepreneurnetwork.com. Just click on them and they'll take you straight to the show.
That way you don't have to try to type it in. For some reason I don't know why these gigantic
institutions like iTunes hadn't come up with a better search bar. But it is what it is, so the link will
take you straight there. So, now that we've got all of that out of the way let's go ahead and get
down to our interview with Shep.
Shep: It is great to be here Travis, thanks for having me on the show.
Travis: How are you?
Shep: I am doing amazing today.
Travis: Yes, I'm super excited to have you here. Your background in what you do is different
than what I've had the majority of the guest on. So for that reason I'm super excited. And if you
don't mind before we get to that do you mind sharing some of your back-story of what brought
you to today and what was the turning point for you to find success?

Shep: Sure, how far back do you want me to go?
Travis: Well, let's start in your pre-teens.
Shep: Okay.
Travis: I'm just kidding.
Shep: No, you think I'm joking? That was a great question. So I can go that far back. So, you
can go all the way back to about the time I could actually write. My mom used to make me do
something when anybody did anything nice for me. And what do you think that was?
Travis: Write a postcard.
Shep: Yeah, or a thank you note, exactly. And that's exactly where it all started, because to
quote somebody from the Nordstrom Organization, somebody once asked, "How do you get
these people to be so great and friendly, and deliver the best customer service? How do you
train them?" And they said, "We don't train them, their parents train them. We just take what
they have and make work for us. So that was my first, I guess, introduction to what you might
call customer service or at least showing appreciation. My grandpa on my dad's side owned a
pharmacy, and when I was about 9 years old I had my first job, 50 cents an hour believe or not.
And I thought it was 5 cents a day, but 50 cents an hour I work, and I did anything the
customers wanted, I delivered pharmacy-- in neighborhood, the different deliveries we had to
make, it was a lot of fun. But age 12 I started my first business. It was a birthday party magic
show business. And that first party I came home and I was talking about it at dinner and what do
you think mom told me to do after dinner?
Travis: I don't know.
Shep: Go right a thank you note.
Travis: Of course, you lob me I should've got that one.
Shep: Right. Well, that's okay, I'll lob you a few more and you'll lob some my way I'm sure. So
my dad also was instrumental because over a period of time as he saw me doing more and
more of these magic shows he said "Shep, this is what you need to do." About a week before

the magic show, and I realize these people would book me to do their kids' birthday parties
sometimes 3, 6 months in advance. And a week before the magic show, or maybe 2 weeks I
would call and say, "Hey, Mr. Jenkins, it's Shep Hyken the magician and I just wanted to let you
know that I have you down for 3 o'clock on Saturday, this is the address I have. Is there
anything else I need to know?" And what that did according to my dad was create confidence.
The next thing was he said do not ever show up on time. If you show up on time you're showing
up late. Vince Lombardy used to say if you show up 10 minutes early you're 10 minutes late.
You liked everybody there 20 minutes ahead of time. So my dad said you need to always show
up early so that the parents never worry about you. That's the last thing you want them worry
about.
Travis: Right.
Shep: Where's that guy and when's he going to get here?
Travis: So, I always showed up early and he used to say stay late, give them a little extra than
they thought they were going to get. Make sure you do the very best job, and about a week after
the program, go home, right the thank you note, but a week after the program call and give
feedback. And there's 2 reasons you do that. He said number 1 you want to make sure you did
a good job. Learn what you can do better, and it was always nice to hear people. They were
always happy with what I did, it made me feel good once in a while. I might get some
constructive feedback. But he said more importantly you need to make sure that when you're at
that party you notice that they have any other-- the little boy or girl that you're working for has
siblings, and say, "Hey Mr. Jenkins, I notice you had a little daughter. When is her birthday
party. You just did the son and next thing you know, boom, you're doing a second birthday
party. Or maybe you notice some other people in the back and ask for referrals. And I built up
this business basically being really nice, showing up early, staying late, doing a great job,
delivering a great customer experience to where I was doing 8 to 10 magic shows a week. And
that kept me pretty busy, kept my parents busy, and made me an awful lot of money as a 13
and 14 year old kid.
Travis: Wow, I love it.
Shep: Yeah. Cut to a few months out of college I didn't have a job, and I was looking around for
something to do. I went and saw a couple of motivational speakers and I said, "I can do that"
with the entertainment background. And by the way, I worked in night clubs from age 14 on. Age

16 I worked in the comedy magic Playboy clubs which was an unbelievable job for a 16 year
old. You can only imagine. And worked in night clubs through college. And then when I
graduated I didn't know what I was going to do. So when I saw these speakers and said I could
do that. And I started reading or researching what I wanted to speak on, within a matter of a
very short time I landed on customer service because it's what I always knew and always
believed in. So that's the short story.
Travis: And so, are you doing a comedy act, are you doing a magic act? When you were 16
years old, were you still doing the magic?
Shep: Sure, I was doing comedy and magic.
Travis: Comedy and magic, okay.
Shep: Yeah. So, this is what's cool. I was 15 years old and I heard there was a magician at the
Playboy Club at St. Louis. And a buddy of mine, it was 16. I said, "We got to go see this
magician, I hear he's great." And so, we show up in blue jeans and a t-shirt. We didn't know any
better, we're just kids. And I walked up to the front desk where there was a bunny it, I said, "Hi,
is there any chance that I could see the magic show?" And she looked at me like I had 2 heads.
And she said, "Hold on just a moment." She went and got the owner, I guess the owner of the
club. His name was Herschel Price by the way, great man. Actually, once in a while I still see
him. He‟s very involved in selling property here in St. Louis with men's fight for cancer. Anyway,
so Herschel came out and he said, "Well, who do we have here?" And me and my friend, I said,
"Mr. Price, I'm Shep Hyken" he said, "I'm Herschel Price." "Mr. Price I'd love to see the
magician." He says, "And you're a magician?" I said, "Yes, I am." He says, "Do you know any
card tricks?" I said, "I sure do." And he handed me a deck of Playboy cards. They used to sell
those. And he says, "Do a trick for me." And I did I trick for him. He goes, "Very good. Come on
in, sit in the back and watch the show." I couldn't believe it. And when I was finished he said,
"Show me another trick." And I did, and he said, "How old are you?" I said, "I'm 15." He says,
"When you're 16 call me." And I did, and he offered me a job doing close up magic as the guest
for waiting for their tables. And then within about 2 or 3 weeks of working those weekends he
offered an opportunity to do my stand up act. Here I'm 16 year old kid, I had a stand up comedy
act. During the break in-between the regular headlining act that was there that weekend. And
that was a great experience. Again, did that through college. And that background of being able
to perform in front of people I think was instrumental in me becoming a speaker. And the fact
that I talk about customer service and that I actually write about customer service, the writing

came as a result of speaking and researching, and eventually wrote my first book a few years
after I started in my business.
Travis: Now, during this period whenever you were working in the Playboy Club, when was
that, what year was that?
Shep: You're going to date me right? That's fine. Some people are concerned about but I'm
seasoned, I'm like fine wine. That was 1976.
Travis: '76, okay.
Shep: 1976, sometime that fall.
Travis: Wow. And so, further down the road you segue into speaking. Take me down the path
of turning it into a business. The comedy and magic act was really a business as well. So,
where did you get your business acumen along the way? Because that's a whole different set of
skill sets.
Shep: It really is. So, there's a little bit of entrepreneurial background from running my own
business the way I did. Even the birthday party. Think about it, I'm managing 8, sometimes more
birthday parties a week.
Travis: Right.
Shep: And how do I do that without messing up? I've got my calendar, I've got my file where I
know-- I'm using a system where I had all these index cards, and when I was supposed to call
somebody it was in the appropriate date. I would imagine if that box was lost, just like a hard
drive crashing, I would've been in big trouble. But that was my version of the computer back in
the 70's. And then when I graduated college and I was in college. Now keep in mind, my mom
and dad were pretty smart people. My mom used to make me get summer jobs, and that way I
was grounded. I'm making pretty good money as a magician. I work my way up to making 80-
$90 for an hour long magic show. And I'm 14 years old, 15 years old, 16 years old doing this. So
it's a great job. You could figure out a really good week, I had a really good week for a kid in the
70's. And save the money, and did all the right things. I was pretty responsible. I think when
you're doing something like I was doing you're kind of forced to be responsible if you want to be
successful. And when I was in college I worked for this oil company, which meant I pumped gas.

Travis: Right.
Shep: I did that on the weekends, and I realized I really kind of liked that business, the retail
business. By the way, another great customer service story. And it was so cold one day, it was
well below zero chill factor and we were a self-serve station. And an elderly lady came up to buy
gas. And she went to get out of the car and I ran out and I said, "Ma'am, I'll pump that gas for
you." And I pumped it for her. She was pretty old to get out, she looked pretty frail. I've seen her
before. And I came back and the manager said, "What did you just do?" And I said, "What do
you mean?" He says, "Did I just see you pump that lady's gasoline?" I said, "Yes, I did that. She
was very old, I thought I didn't want her to stand out in the cold." And he says, "Now, she's
going to expect that everytime." And I thought, "You know what, that's probably not such a bad
thing if she would come back everytime she needed gasoline." And again, that's customer
service, and I'm thinking, "Wow, my manager and I are already differing about what good
service is and I'm just a kid in college." What did I know?
Travis: Right.
Shep: When I graduated college I thought I might to go to work for that company for the rest of
my life and it turns out they sold the company within a short period of time after I graduated. So,
I also realize I liked the business. They had about a hundred some gasoline stations and I really
like learning about not just one station but learning how they manage all of them. So I said, "I
want to be in business." The magic thing was fun, I made good money but I also realized I'd
probably get bored pretty quick. When I didn't have this job and I saw these speakers I said that
looks interesting. So I wrote a speech, and I went to the news stand in Clayton, Missouri, not far
from it. It's a suburb of St. Louis. Probably about 3 blocks from where my office is right now. And
I bought every business magazine that was available, not to read the articles, but to look at the
pictures. That doesn't sound right does it? No. Anyway, I didn't want to read the articles, I
wanted to look at the advertisements, and I pulled out every full page ad that they had. And put
them in a stack, and at the end of about several hours of doing this research I had a nice stack
of full page ads. Recognizing that if they are advertising a full page they're selling something.
They probably have a sales meeting, hopefully they'll hire a speaker, and I just started trying to
figure out what the phone numbers were for these companies and I started smiling and dialling,
asking to speak to the vice president of sales, or marketing of these companies. And that's how
I started. There was another resource called Sorkins Directory which was all the business
listings of my area. And I called on small companies like Anheuser-Busch, and Enterprise Rent-
A-Car. And my first 3 clients were believe it or not, Anheuser-Busch, Enterprise, and General

Motors. I followed up on one of those big ads that I saw in a magazine. I called up Michigan,
and they directed me to, gosh, after a number of places I finally ended up talking to a
gentleman, actually a secretary, his name was Al Rice. And I managed after about 3 or 4 weeks
of pestering his assistant or the secretary. She finally relented and let me come in for a meeting.
I never told her I didn't live in Detroit. And I showed up on time, and at that point I let Mr. Rice
know that I was from St. Louis. He goes, wait a minute, he says, "Okay kid, show me what you
got. Tell me why you're here." And I was like, "Kid?" And I was talking to this elderly gentleman,
and he says, "You're from St. Louis and you flew all the way up here just to meet with me?" I
said, "Yes, sir." "No other reason?" "No sir, I‟m going right home. I flew in this morning, I'm going
home this evening." And he goes, "You know what, we're going to book you." He booked me for
3 days in January. I started my business in August. He booked me for 3 days that January in
1984. And after I was finished, from that point on for the next 6 or 7 years he booked me for 40-
50 days a year.
Travis: Wow, and so--
Shep: service combined there to get that business.
Travis: I love that story. So, I guess, how did you perceive the speaking aspect by looking at
the advertisement. What was your perception that you would be able to do for them in a
speaking role since looking at their advertisements? What did you see there?
Shep: I just saw that they were selling something, you know? There's another guy, Charlie
Coleman was his name. He worked for Pitney Bowes. And I remember just like it was
yesterday. I'm in the second bedroom of this apartment that I'm living in, and I'm making all
these calls, that's control central for my business. And I remember calling Mr. Coleman who was
so nice to me, and he said, "Shep, we actually use people like you but we already have a guy
that does something very similar to what you do." Because I told him I incorporated the
entertainment, the magic into the speech, and it was kind of motivational in style. And sure
enough, 10 years later I did a meeting for Pitney Bowes, and there was Charlie and smiling. He
said, "Shep, do you remember? It was a long time ago." I said, "I know exactly when it was. I
know what week it was, I almost know exactly what day it was. And you were just such a
gentleman, you kept saying check back with me next year, check back with me next year." And
that's what I did.

Travis: I love that persistency. So you viewed your skill set as an extension of an ad. Actually, a
more dimensional, more interactive ad, right?
Shep: Well, it wasn't an advertisement to get me to ask them to book me as a speaker. It was
an advertisement for Pitney Bowes, they were selling their metered mail systems. And I just
figured, everywhere I went they had an ad, so I figured they probably have sales meetings, they
probably have employee meetings. And that's all it indicated, is that they were big enough if
they had a full page ads in these big magazines. They were big enough to probably have that
type of meeting.
Travis: Okay.
Shep: That's as sophisticated is my marketing data.
Travis: But you know, that paired with tenacity and boldness, and also your ability to-- obviously
you have a natural ability to get in rapport very quickly. So, when you combine all of those
things, so deductive thinking, you start reverse engineering what's going on. You're bold enough
to make the phone calls. You're tenacious to stay in there and keep following up, and following
up, and following up until things. And I have a very similar path minus the magic and the
comedy. But I completely understand where you're coming from. I love the creativeness that's at
work here. Now, did you say anybody in your family were entrepreneurs, or were you the first
entrepreneur in the family?
Shep: My dad had an insurance business, so I guess it's very entrepreneurial. I do know where
the work ethic came from. When I was a teenager, aside from doing my magic shows, those
summer jobs. I worked at a building in maintenance, I painted. I worked at that gas station, work
at a station pumping gas. I worked on tow boat one summer. Most of the time by the way magic
shows back when I was younger it was seasonal because kids are on vacation doing those
birthday parties, not so much for the night clubs as I got a little bit older. You didn't have a lot of
birthday parties happening in the middle of the summer. The thing to keep in mind, and I'll go
back. When I was a kid, my idol was Johnny Carson. He used to not only host the Tonight Show
but he was quite a good magician, I don't know if you knew that or not.
Travis: Yes.

Shep: He was raised in Nebraska, he did magic. And that always intrigued me as I read about
him and whatever books and articles were about him. But he used to say something. He used to
say that show business is 2 words. There's the show, and the business. And he would be
involved in every facet of the Tonight Show. He would talk to the sponsors and advertisers, he
helped bring them on. The guy was amazing. He pretty much did it all. He helped with comedy
writing and then he went out and delivered it. And I said that's what I want to do. Now, at the
time I was thinking magic shows. I said I have a business. And when I decided I was going to do
the night clubs and all that, I treated it like a business, not like a typical entertainer might do. My
goal was-- there was one club I worked at college quite a bit called the Flamingo Cafe down in
St. Louis. Very, very popular place, they actually for quite a while after it opened it was the
number 1 hot spot in St. Louis to have dinner and be seen. I got a job there 3 hours on
Saturday, 3 hours on Sunday, and it was 3 hours in Friday and Saturday nights doing magic,
working the tables. My goal was that I was lucky on Saturday night I'd have a cocktail hour that I
could do a private show, and on Saturday evening and Friday evening after I was finished
around 11 o'clock, I can go do late night shows, private parties. I can have really amazing
weekends. And then guess what, fill in a couple of magic shows for kids on a Saturday or
Sunday, and I was working pretty darn hard. So I have this great work ethic and I think that
helps so much. And I treated it like a business because Johnny Carson said show business.
Now, today in the speaking business it's 2 words. A lot of these people that get in to this
speaking business and they struggle, don't recognize how important the business side of it is. I
get every day and I look at the list of calls I have to make. The follow-up emails. Granted the
phone rings a lot more than it used to from the standpoint of my success and been around for a
long time, people do call. But we still work really hard to get the phone to ring, and that's the
business side of it. And recognizing that my business the way I run it is probably-- It's not
uncommon to have a speaker do what I do, but I do operate I think at a higher rent for a type of
business that I have.
Travis: Right. So walk me down the path of what you specialize in which is customer service, or
maybe specialize is the wrong word, but something that you teach.
Shep: Yeah, it's not only what I specialize in, I live it, I breathe it, it's my lane, and I don't really
deviate from it. So anything that's tied to the customer service or experience, which ties into
building a relationship with someone you do business with. Or the internal customer who you
work with. So, it's all tied together but that's it, you won't see me-- I work sales meetings and I
work all employee meetings, and I'll talk about what I specialize in, but you're not going to see
me doing sales training, or talking about time management, or leading a program on change. I

stay with my lane. So what happened in 1983 I saw, the speakers by the way were Zig Zigglar
and Tom Hopkins. Two amazing, amazing speakers. And I bought a set of, back then they were
cassette tapes called See You at the Top by Zig Zigglar, and I bought the book How to Master
the Art of Selling Anything by Tom Hopkins. And I think that evening and those two tools that I
bought, the book and cassette tapes, excuse me, were the germination of my speaking
business. Because the very next day I recognize that I needed to go out and find the people I
needed to call. So I got the magazines. I needed to start writing the speech. So I went to the
book store, back then it was called bit off I went to the business section. Back then it was not
even one shelf of books. Today the business section is multiple racks and racks of books.
Travis: Right.
Shep: So I bought just about every one that I could afford to buy which pretty much all of it.
There weren't that many. And I just started reading and researching. I read articles, read an
article shortly after I got into my business by Jan Carlzon about this concept of the moment of
truth, which he eventually wrote a book about titled Moments of Truth in the mid 1980's. And I
said, "This is exactly what I believe in. It's all about that moment of truth.” When you interact
with that customer they have an opportunity to form an impression. And I put my spin on it. I
said it was in the moment of magic, imagine that, magic.
Travis: Right.
Shep: Or is it a moment of misery, or is it average, a moment of mediocrity. And the whole idea,
the magic was make it great, make it better than average. And that was my way of incorporating
some of the fun, entertainment background that I had into the speech. Because if the client likes
the idea of an entertaining presentation I'll incorporate that magic into some of my speeches.
And it's really quite fun.
Travis: I like it.
Shep: Not so much just for me but for the audience especially.
Travis: Right. You really got to have a certain skill to be able to insert levity into a speech. It
requires a lot of timing and there are certain areas of comedy that can be very esoteric and
dangerous to go into because they could be taken multiple ways. So, someone with your

background, it probably just comes extremely natural to you, where it's not so easy for many
others.
Shep: Well, putting a comedy is fine, every once in a while I'll say something. I'll never say
anything dirty, or blue, or off color. I don't cuss on stage. Every once in a while I will say
something that obviously is taken a different way. But there is a line that I used, a very funny
line. I talked about how I dated my wife, and I got my second date with her. And after a year and
a half we „closed the deal‟. To some people I guess closing the deal mean something other than
getting married. But that was--
Travis: Imagine that.
Shep: I'm not exactly sure where that-- it came out one day that way and it's like, whoa,
somebody's thinking-- people are laughing and it isn't that funny? And then I realized, you know
what, it is that funny. And I got to be careful saying-- I was more embarrassed than anybody
else might have been, and it wasn't even anything to be embarrassed about.
Travis: Right.
Shep: Very, very funny bit. So I believe my energy, my interest, my goal in always giving the
best presentation I can, the focus that I have. I try to-- no matter what's going on in my life, I
tried to make sure that I block all of that out because at that moment when I walk on stage I do
not want to be thinking about anything other than my audience and my client.
Travis: Right.
Shep: So let's shift gears and let's talk about the top 5 or 6 things that people should focus on.
And maybe the inverse of that. The top 5 or 6 things that you find are common mistakes with
customer service.
Travis: Sure. Where do we begin, there's so many things to talk about. But let's talk about what
maybe some mistakes are. And I'm not really going to go on to some specific mistakes as much
as the whole mentality of it all.
Shep: Right.

Travis: Most of the clients that hire me, and we provide-- me as a speaker, I have trainers that
go out and deliver the content in a much longer-- It's not an event, it's more of a process, or a
speech is more an event. And we also have online training. And when we work with clients,
surprisingly, most of them are calling me not because they need help. Most clients call because
they want to keep where they are, stay strong, maybe take it to another level but they're already
at a great level. And actually when I first started out kind of surprised me until I realized it's the
great companies that like to stay on top. I think one of the best pictures I ever saw, I remember,
and it struck me so strangely of an athlete was Tiger Woods, standing over a putt on a practice
screen after he'd been considered the greatest player ever. And there he is, his coach standing
right next to him, obviously telling him what to do. Now, here's the greatest player of that time I
guess, not yet the greatest player ever. But the greatest player of that time and not even argue
with me. And he had a coach telling him, "Hey, you need to move your hand down a little bit.
You're losing your grip" or whatever. And I thought, "Wow, that's what the best companies do.
They bring in folks like myself, programs like what we offer. And they try to take it to the next
level or at least maintain where they are. Now, once in a while, and this is where the mistake
comes in. A client will call and say we need help. And here's why. And they give me good
answers as to why they want it. And then when I get there and work with them I realize they're
using me as a band aid, or they're using one day of training for all their people as a band aid
thinking that's going to turn things around permanently. And it doesn't happen quickly. It takes
time, it takes effort, it takes focus, it takes a culture change. Culture doesn't change overnight.
We can get in front of an audience and it could be 10 people, 100 people, 1,000 people, 10,000
people. The best we're going to do if it's a onetime thing is a small percentage of those people
will be impacted and make positive change. Which by the way, even that small number typically
pays for an exponentially higher amount than what they paid for our services. But imagine if
instead of 10 or 15% of the people making a change. What if 30%, 50%, what if the majority
started to change? And that takes more than just an event. So I think one of the big
misconceptions and any type of a culture change especially as it's focused on customer service
is it needs to be relentless all the time, constant, not every day, but reinforcement. The best
restaurants have daily huddles before the shift starts. A lot of companies have weekly huddles.
Some companies have quarterly major meetings. I just worked with a great organization the
other day where their entire company of about 1,600 employees. Every month on a particular
day, at 10 o'clock in the morning, that is when they have their monthly employee meeting. And
no matter what happens they go to a TV monitor in the cafeteria, and the auditorium, and they
watch this monthly update. They do this to keep everybody on the ball, and keep everybody
focused.

Travis: Right. Yeah, I completely agree with you. So, they need to be relentless. That would be
your number one, right?
Shep: Yeah, and again, I think the companies that think that one shot's going to do it, that's the
big mistake. The ones that stay on it, keep it on, keep in front of mind, they make it happen.
Travis: And I kind of view that as a lack of planning, right? They get into a situation to where it's
become a dire problem rather than I guess incorporating this into the business. I guess what I
see and maybe in a different context, but it's relevant to this is people planning for the storm the
day of the storm as an analogy. And you don't plan for a storm the day of the storm. You've got
to be thinking way ahead of things. Most businesses should be engineering the experiences
way ahead of things. So are you a fan of engineering a client experience?
Shep: Right. I love what you just said. Noah didn't wait for the flood to build the arc.
Travis: Right.
Shep: I love that reference.
Travis: Right.
Shep: And so, ask me the question again, am I fan of--
Travis: So, are you a fan of engineering the customer service experience?
Shep: 100%
Travis: Okay.
Shep: So, what happens is, and people say which comes first, being customer focused or
customer-centric, or employee focused? And I argue that before you can truly become customer
focused, you have to become employee focused, okay? And you're going to engineer that
experience. So the truth however, if you want to step back at the very, very beginning, the only
reason why the customer focus might come first is because you decide this is what I want the
outcome to be. But once you decide what that outcome is, and what you want it to be for the
customer, you have to immediately step back and say, "Okay, how am I going to make that

happen?" It's not going to happen just on the front line, it's going to happen from the very, very
beginning of whatever it is you do. There's going to be some type for process. It doesn't matter if
you sell a service or a product, it doesn't matter what it is. Whatever you're selling, being a
service or a product, you need to engineer that experience to be completely customer focused.
So, what you might do is what's the typical scenario our customer is going to experience if they
do business with us. You can pick any business but let's make it real simple. Let's say it's an
automobile dealership. And what happens is somebody is going to see an advertisement. Let's
use Jan Carlzon from Scandinavian Airlines, he was the one who came up with the moment of
truth idea that created a moment of magic. He identified the main points of contact, the
interactions that the passenger had. They saw an ad, they called and made a reservation, they
went and picked up their ticket at the city ticket office, that's what you did back then in the 70's.
And then you checked in on the day of departure at the curb. You walked in and checked-in at
the ticket counter, you walked in the gate, you saw employees along the way and they smiled at
you. Again, another interaction even though it's not a major one it's still an important one. You're
greeted at the gate, greeted as you walked on the plane, you're taken care of by the flight
attendant. You see there‟s this chain of events, and I can go on all way until they finally pick up
their bags. And so, when you start to look at the chain of events, now you need to engineer the
experience to make sure that every interaction that, that customer has is a positive one or as I
call it a moment of magic. And magic doesn't mean over-the-top, blow me away. A moment of
magic is anything better than average. It could just be a nice, positive attitude, or it could be
something bigger than that. But it's just always at least above average. Anyway, let's take for
example the passenger drops their bag off at the curb on the day of departure. And what has to
happen is first of all, somebody needs to be at the curb. Ideally, they're not going to wait 30
minutes in a line, hopefully, staffed properly. Once that bag goes down the conveyor belt, who
knows what happens down there but I'll guarantee there's a lot of interesting activity, making
sure that, that plane or that bag gets on the correct airplane, going to the right destination. So,
there's these all these behind the scenes impact points is what they call them, that need to be
engineered and managed properly so that the front line experience, which is a touch point that
they're all positive. If everything's perfect but you get to the end of the trip and you're waiting for
your bag on the baggage carousel and it doesn't show up, it doesn't matter how good everything
was at that moment, it's all gone. Disappear in a second.
Travis: Right.
Shep: Actually, probably in about 20 minutes, because that's how long it'll take for somebody to
figure out, a bag's not coming.

Travis: Right.
Shep: So, anyway, as I talk about this, I realize that's where you engineer it. You engineer by
creating this story. And you journey map the typical customer experience, and then you go
behind the scenes, and this is really important, to prove that every single department, which
means virtually everybody in those department is somehow touching that customer. Be it behind
the scenes or on the front line. Jan Carlzon used to say, "If you're not actually dealing directly
with the passenger, you're probably supporting somebody that is." You need to manage the
moments of truth internally just as important as you would the ones externally.
Travis: Yeah. In my businesses I've put a lot of time in creating flow charts that show every
single step of this. Because there's something-- it hits a certain part of our brain that I haven't
quite put my hands on yet that allows me to really think things out on a deeper level when I
flowchart it. Now, I know that sounds very geeky, but things that I have a hard time explaining in
complex situations are very easily explained whenever they're laid out on a flow chart, right?
Shep: You're planning you're seeing it. You're a visual person, but I think it still needs to be
there. You need to sit down because you can't just think about it you've got to commit it. And
you got to see it. And then what's going to happen is you've got this flowchart that has all of
these different interactions. And then you're going to get a new one because something different
happened with the customer or a client. And that may not be typical but you ought to add to it
because if this happens what do you do, what's the outcome? It becomes data in a sense.
Travis: I think that's where you start moving into greatness because once you understand this
process then you can start saying, "What happens when they don't do this? What happens
when they don't check in at the curb? What happens when they do this, what happens when
they do that?" And you start engineering a system that is prepared for people that enter, let's
just call the process a funnel. Enter the funnel sideways at the wrong entry point or the
uncommon entry point. And you can engineer each one of these steps and then it also goes a
long way with you systemizing your business. So that the experience is consistent for everybody
across the board. So let me go back a little bit because I have a couple of questions when you
go a little deeper on some of the things that you've talked about so far, okay?
Shep: Sure.

Travis: So, number 1 lack of planning for customers. We really already hit that one, to plan for a
storm is not the day of the storm. So we move on to the next one. Number 2, need to be
relentless. I completely agree with that. I see so many businesses that don't have regular
meetings. We have weekly meetings in our businesses, and we talk about every single
customer that's going through the system. And then we know how long somebody should be in
a process, or a phase, or a stage. And if they're not we ask why. And everybody on the team is
present for that, and that way everybody is on board and everybody clearly understands that our
focus is to make sure that everybody's having a great experience. And so--
Shep: Yeah, you're doing the right thing. And that's what all companies should be doing.
Travis: Yeah, and so that aligns with what you're saying there?
Shep: 100%
Travis: Okay.
Shep: And it's easy as a smaller business as we both are to do that. It's the larger businesses
that seem to be encumbered because they're marred in systems, and processes, and multiple
layers. And I go back to Jan Carlzon as I keep thinking about his book. He talked about
smashing down the layers and keeping them so their-- that there's not that many layers
between upper management and the front line. And the less there is the better it is. It's so
important that a store manager of a retail store be visible and not in the back. Because the
visibility does a couple of things. One, it allows that manager to support his team or her team,
and it allows that manager to be seen and see what's going on, and the interactions that the
customers are having. The best management doesn't sit in the ivory tower and never interact
with the customer. And the only way they're going to learn is to get out there and do it.
Anheuser-Busch used to send employees out quarterly, executives out to ride trucks with the
sales route people so that they can see what's really going out or going on out there. So they
can make better and informed decisions about the experiences that they wanted their
customers to have.
Travis: Yeah, I completely agree. I went down a path to where I'd build my construction
business to a really corporate level to where it was just the org chart was like a pyramid, exactly
what you're talking about. And what it does is it causes more waste, and more people, more
redundancy, and more people doing unnecessary things. And ultimately the answer to that is

exactly what you said, is to make it a very flat org chart that maybe has 2-3 levels of hierarchy at
the most, and nobody's afraid to move proverbial furniture, get their hands dirty, to get the job
done.
Shep: Sure. And that brings me to a really cool tool and you ask me for some good habits, or
tactics, or things that I can't remember how you phrased it. But what are some of the things
great companies are doing and what are some that need to be done that aren't being done.
Here's what some of the great companies doing, and it helps flatten out the org chart, or make
things easier. They empower their employees, number 1, but I'm going to go a step further.
They empower them to say yes. So, I do a lot of work with Ace Hardware, one of my favorite
clients, and I actually wrote about them in a recent book that I just wrote, where they were a role
model in a case study for this. And the tool specifically, and I call it a tool, get it? Ace Hardware,
tool? But the tool that was specific to this was 1, to say yes, and 2 to say no. In other words,
where most companies would say, "Boy, that sounds like it's a reasonable request, let me go
check with my manager to make sure that was okay." This company Ace Hardware says, "You
know what, don't come to us unless you have to say no. Figure out how to say yes." And later
on when we have our daily huddle, you can ask me was this appropriate. Let's hear the stories,
and we'll let you know and teach you if it was done improperly, what we would rather had done.
And it becomes a teaching moment, not where you berate somebody for doing a wrong thing,
because you want to empower them to take chances, and step out, and come up with really
good customer-focused solutions.
Travis: Yeah, I like that. I'm sure that cut a lot of time down also.
Shep: Oh, and I want you to think about this. There's another tool called the $5 Lifeboat where
one day a customer came in, they were upset with somebody at Ace Hardware because they
had bought some batteries that didn't get the rebate which was $5. And the owner of the store
walked over the cash register, and it was during one of these meetings with the employees. He
said, "Can you hand me a $5 bill?" And first the cash register did and the owner walked over to
the gentleman, he says, "Here you are, and by the way, if you get the rebate bring it back, but
don't worry about it if you don't. We just don't want you to be upset with us. Thank you so much
for letting us know it." At that moment went from being upset to very happy and befriending the
owner and becoming a loyal customer. And the guy said, "Everybody has permission to spend a
reasonable amount of money, let's say it's $5, to make sure the customer's happy." Now the
Ritz-Carlton by the way gives employees the opportunity to spend $2,000 for the right moment.
But here's what happened, a young, newly-hired kid, probably about 18 years old. A woman

came to get a key made, and she realized she left her wallet at home after he'd made the key.
And he said to the woman, "Don't worry about it, really, just go ahead." Because it was what,
maybe a buck and a half, two bucks to make the key. On her way out she said to the manager
or the owner, "I just wanted to let you know I don't want this young man to get in trouble, but he
gave me the key and he told me I didn't have to pay for it." And that manager smiled and he
said, "That's exactly what he was supposed to do. We welcome your business, come on back."
And it's like, that's an amazing story. It can't get any better than that. That was the whole
process in action.
Travis: Right. Yeah, great illustration of that. So, getting back to the list here, the becoming the
employee focused-- So, spending the time to train them in the process, really, you said that you
could flip both of these, become customer focused or become employee focused. And so, really
you could become customer focused by engineering the path and then secondarily focusing on
the employee by teaching and managing that overall path. Is that the correct explanation that
you had mentioned there?
Shep: Yeah, pretty close. I think that you decide you want the experience to be great, but you
have to start on the inside and make that happen. So, are you truly employee focused first. See,
what's happening on the inside of an organization is felt on the outside by the customer. So I
think you have that right on the inside. And I wrote a book, several books back called The Cult
of the Customer and it was the 5 culture phases that customers go through from the point they
first start doing business with you to the point where they're loyal. And guess what, employees
go through the same phases, but they go through those phases right before the customer does.
So, I believe that you really do have to become employee-centric or employee focused to make
it happen.
Travis: One of the things that we've always tried to do is we try to do something special for the
client after the check.
Shep: Yup, you call that the After Experience.
Travis: Oh, okay great. Because a lot of times it's always nice to be generous and kind, and
engineer a great experience. But there's something magical happens when people know that
you're intentionally go on above and beyond the call of duty. And most people feel like that the
transaction has finished once the payment has been given. And so there's no better way to
drive that home than doing something after that.

Shep: Right. And so, one of the things we try to not use-- sometimes you have to use the word
because it's the right word. But to describe what you're talking about, we do not like the
transaction word. We call it an interaction. Because in interaction indicates that there's no
finality to it, it's just a moment, an interaction at that moment. And there's going to be more. It's
transactional, it's starting into.
Travis: Right.
Shep: But by the way, that interaction that comes after the sale has made or after the check has
been received could be as simple as a phone call, an email, a thank you note. Maybe it's a
more thoughtful gift, but it's just the basics of showing appreciation. And you can get as deep as
you want with it. If you read an article and you feel it's appropriate that your customer, your
client see this, you might write a little note, "Saw this and thought of you." Travis, I see that
picture of you and I wonder is that your wife or is that some young daughter of yours you just-- I
bet that's your daughter.
Travis: That's my daughter.
Shep: Yeah, I'm just kidding. You have a beautiful daughter by way. Now, you start telling me
that your daughter play soccer and I happen to see something. I read an article about youth
soccer, I might send that to you and say, "Hey, I saw this, I thought of you and your daughter."
And that just shows that I'm thinking about you outside of your typical transactional if you want
to call it that type experience.
Travis: Right. Excellent point. So listen, we're running a little long on time. Are you ready to
transition to the lightning round, I've sent you 3 questions over there, do you need to drop down
and do some push-ups?
Shep: Yeah, I'm ready.
Travis: Do some squats or anything?
Shep: Ready to go, yeah.
Travis: Okay, great. So what book or program made an impact on you related to business that
you'd recommend and why?

Shep: Well, the first book I have to say is Amaze Every Customer Every Time because that's
the most recent book I wrote. And the impact, more sales, more credibility, more money. The
money actually with writing a book is inconsequential. But no, I joke about that. So a couple of
books. I actually like to share with you 3 books. The first book that made kind of the biggest
impact was Moments of Truth by Jan Carlzon, I already mentioned that. And that was written in
the mid 1980's. However, there's one of my very favorite business books called The Experience
Economy by Joe Pine and Jim Gilmore. All about how you take a commodity, create an
experience, and people pay a lot more money for it. And the case study is Starbucks for that. If
you can only imagine, coffee is very inexpensive as a commodity, but when you wrap the
experience around it it's amazing. And then anything Tom Peters writes, I love Tom Peters, and
Seth Godin for that matter.
Travis: The Experience Economy. Anything by who?
Shep: By Tom Peters.
Travis: Oh, Tom Peters.
Shep: Yeah, or Seth Godin. I love both of those authors. Well, Tom Peters back when I first
started, wrote In Search of Excellence. And that was like a bible for me. And looking at those
companies at that time were very excellent, some of them still are. And it's really fascinating to
see how companies come in vogue and out of vogue, which is one of the reasons I chose Ace
Hardware to case study. Because they've been in vogue believe it or not as, not so much as a
recognized rock star but being solid as a rock since the mid 1920's, even during the depression.
Travis: Right.
Shep: The reason they did well is because people stop spending money having other people
make repairs, and went to the hardware store and did it themselves. And then as soon as things
got good again, they still go to the hardware store, but other people go to the hardware store
and pick up items to bring back and do it for them. But customer service is what keeps them in
the game as they compete against these big companies. Now, I'm digressing. But I look at what
some of these amazing companies do and the excellent companies, back in the 80's when Tom
Peters wrote the book. I think if you take a look at the criteria of what it takes to be excellent, it
really hasn't changed.

Travis: Right. Yeah, I completely agree. What's one of your favorite tools or pieces of
technology that you've recently discovered if any that you'd recommend to other business
owners and why?
Shep: Well, and actually I've written something down but I'm going to change it right now. And
I'm going to say that YouTube is one of the coolest technologies ever invented. And the reason
is because for virtually nothing other than your webcam on your camera, and maybe if you want
to get fancy buy a $10 external microphone. Start doing some YouTube videos as a business, a
small business, you could do it down and dirty like this. A larger business might want to spend a
little bit more money and make a nicer production. But put out content and share ideas. It's not
about advertising and marketing although the by-product of it is the fact that your-- like what I do
on a weekly basis. I post video content on my YouTube channel which gets picked up in other
places with nothing more-- it's not a, "Hey, hire me to be your next speaker." No, it's all about
here's another piece of content that I want to share with you that might be relevant and useful to
you. I do this every week. There are other companies that do the same thing. What happens
over a period of time is when somebody needs help and they go to the internet, and they
Google something, a video shows up. I keep mentioning Ace Hardware and I'm not even going
to apologize for doing that because they're a great organization. But you want to learn how to
properly lay the wood floor down in your dining room. Well, just Google it and guess what,
you're going to get a video from different people including Ace Hardware. You know what, sure,
they'd love you to come in and buy from the but they're going to make sure that you have
information. I think it's using video the right way is a very, very generous way of supporting your
community. And guess what Law of Reciprocity says, "The more you give the more you get." So
keep giving and people will eventually say, "You know what, I think I'm going to give them a try."
Travis: Yeah, I completely agree with you. That's actually how this show started getting legs. I
didn't spend any money on marketing this show for 18 months. And we reached 105 countries
without any marketing in 18 months. That's insane, coming from the era-- you and I are both
from an era to where that was never possible, right?
Shep: Well, that's one of the greatest technologies of all time, is the internet.
Travis: Yeah.
Shep: Or as George Bush would say the internet‟s--

Travis: Yeah, the interwebs.
Shep: Which according to Al Gore was invented by him.
Travis: Yeah. All have Al to thank for that. What famous quote would best summarize your
belief or your attitude in business?
Shep: Wow, I've got so many great quotes that I love. Great question. I think Zig Zigglar said, "If
you help enough people get what they want, you'll get what you want."
Travis: Yup.
Shep: And that again is that Law of Reciprocity. Ted Lauder, senior professor of Harvard
Business School said the function of every business is to keep customers and don't confuse the
getting with the keeping, and making money. Because making money everybody thinks is the
goal, but it's not, it's getting and keeping customers. I love that. Although Gucci, the expensive
shoes and handbags and jewellery set, always remember long after price is forgotten. But I
believe that probably if you just focus on helping others, the money comes later, it'll happen,
people reciprocate. So helping up people get what they want.
Travis: Totally agree.
Shep: We have people follow us all the time and they ask for advice and suggestions, what
would I charge. Unless they abuse me we don't charge anybody anything.
Travis: So you're requesting abuse then?
Shep: Well, I don't mind it. It's like within reason. A client say, "Hey, we want to engage you for
an hour of consulting" versus, "Hey, can I have a real quick conversation with you about
something, I want to pick your brain for 15 minutes or 10 minutes." You know what, I'm happy to
do that.
Travis: Right.

Shep: Again, if it starts to become abusive and we're not prepared, it's like, "Hey, let's stop this,
let's do it again. If I send you a bill you'll be better prepared next."
Travis: Right. You're brilliant. I love the level of energy and the humour in your attitude, and
you're just overall, entire personality. You've just been a complete absolute pleasure to hang out
with and pick your brain. I appreciate you sharing all of your wisdom. How can people connect
with you?
Shep: Just Google my name, Shep Hyken, or go to hyken.com, you can follow me on Twitter,
hyken, it's just that easy, that's my last name. Connect with me on any of the social channels,
LinkedIn, just search for me Shep Hyken, Facebook, Shep Hyken. Actually it's Shep Hyken
speaker on Facebook is my business page. So, would love to connect. I do a weekly article,
again, that's what I give as much as possible. So if you want to subscribe to that, it comes out
every Wednesday, you're welcome to use it with your teams, whoever's listening to this and
print it out. It always comes with a little cartoon, it's always fun to share with the team as well.
End of Interview
Travis: Excellent. Thank you very much. Just remember guys that you can go to
rockstarentrepreneurnetwork.com and it's a new site that we've been building out that's focused
on giving you the resources to grow your business. You'll find all of the show notes, the links to
the books, everything that were mentioned during the show. All of the resources. Now, before I
close the show today I want to remind you that building a profitable business is a series of
formulas. And as you apply those formulas to your business your profits become very
predictable and start building long term wealth in the process. If you haven't reached that level
yet we've put together a free program called the Business Breakthrough Sweepstakes where
we focus on teaching some of those simple steps in a step-by-step format so that you can
customize it to your business. This is what I've used to build several tiny, little, local companies
into multi-million dollar businesses. Also, to add some fun and excitement, if you join the
sweepstakes and stay engaged you'll have a chance to win $73,000 in cash and prices, where
I'll personally mentor you and your business, plus you'll have a chance to win my personal
Lamborghini. As always, for more information go to rockstarentrepreneurnetwork.com and click
on the sweepstakes promotion up in the upper right-hand corner.

My quote for today comes from Benjamin Disraeli, and the quote reads, "Nurture your mind with
great thoughts." This is Travis Lane Jenkins signing off for now. To your incredible success,
take care my friend.

How We Can Help You
We know that finding someone that you can trust online today is hard and that so many “so
called gurus” are self-‐appointed and have never really even done what they teach you to
do. That‟s exactly why we created the Double Your Profits Business Accelerator. This is an
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Here's what to expect. We'll Schedule a 'One on One' private session, where we'll take the time
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We'll do this by performing a S.W.O.T. Analysis. This tells us your Strengths, Weaknesses,
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This will be an eye opener for YOU, for several reasons, however some of the most common
reasons are.
As the 'Business Owner' it‟s difficult to see the big picture of your own business because you‟re
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And you are too emotionally involved to completely impartial.
This is a common problem for EVERY business owner. It doesn‟t matter if you are a one-man
army, or an army of 150, the problem is still the same.
Travis Lane Jenkins
Business Mentor-Turn Around Specialist
Radio Host of The Entrepreneurs Radio Show
“Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs That Grow Your
Business"

The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 096 Shep Hyken

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