An Interview with Judy Gombita - Part I
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The document is an interview with Judy Gombita, a Toronto-based public relations strategist, discussing her extensive experience in communication management and social media. Gombita reflects on the evolution of her understanding of public relations, emphasizing the importance of internal communications and corporate culture in building relationships and reputation management. She advocates for precision in defining roles within public relations and expresses concerns about misconceptions regarding social media’s role in corporate communication.
An Interview with Judy Gombita - Part I
- 1. A Conversation about Global Public Relations Interview with Judy Gombita
- 2. Judy Gombita is a Toronto-based hybrid public relations, communication management and social media strategist, with more than 20 years of employment and executive-level volunteer board experience, primarily in the financial and lifelong learning non-profit sectors. She is a principal, co-content editor and Canadian contributor (since 2007) to the global, collaborative blog, PR Conversations and also wrote a monthly column on social PR on the Maximize Social Business site for two years. She is an editorial advisory board member (and contributor) to The Journal of Professional Communication (JPC). Judy publishes the daily paper @PRConversations Champions and is a member of the Paper.li Business Heroes program; a program dedicated to promoting and recognizing outstanding individuals in the Paper.li community.
- 3. Interview with Judy Gombita by Kelly Hungerford edited by Magda Alexandra Torres Part One Global Public Relations 3 Business Heroes
- 4. Part One Global Public Relations Describe your background in public relations and communication management, in particular how professional and personal history aids you in being an online information curator and/or community builder. Regarding how my career has evolved, it’s important to know that earlier in my life I planned to be a journalist. First, though, I wanted to do a liberal arts university degree—I chose a double-specialist program in English and History. The University of Toronto and my various professors had a huge impact on two overarching skills I developed: research and critical thinking. As a BA involves a lot of term papers, writing numerous fact-based yet interesting and creative essays also proved great training for my eventual calling. My program involved a fourth-level “independent study,” where the entire grade was based on one paper. I did have a faculty advisor I met with monthly, but otherwise all aspects were my sole responsibility—productivity, research, original-thesis topic selection and writing, etc. Although the plan was to pursue a second degree in journalism, I ended up taking a school hiatus (for both a mental break and financial reasons). My first two jobs following university both had as a component newsletters and special events planning for stakeholders and I began to warm to the idea of being an in-house scribe on a permanent basis. I did complete a part-time Certificate in Magazine Journalism from Ryerson University, which was a great program to learn formal project management, copy editing, writing, editing and design and layout skills, which certainly came in handy over the ensuing years. I was hired to work at a large provincial professional accountants’ association at a junior administrative and communication level and ended up spending a double-digit number of years there. It really was a deep-dive into communication management and numerous stakeholder relationship building in the financial sector, as I progressed over the years to managing or assisting in every aspect of written and spoken (speechwriting, briefing notes and talking points) communication except for the paid advertising. The last few years were when I did full-time public relations. When I took on editorship of the flagship publication, I introduced several things like broadening its mandate, instituting an editorial advisory board and, for the first time, recruiting permanent columnists as subject experts. (I also worked with different member subject-experts as editor of a great series of information booklets 4 Business Heroes
- 5. Part 1. Global Public Relations Business Heroes 5 and pamphlets.) Another feature I ran for a few years was called Accounting for Your Spare Time, in which a member would describe a particular hobby or passion unrelated to finance. It’s interesting that it was only in 2011 that the Edelman Trust Barometer identified internal experts as a trusted resource, as I had appreciated subject-expert from my years recruiting writers. I wrote about it in one of my two submissions for (Australian) Craig Pearce’s Public relations 2011: issues, insights and ideas ebook, Internal journo and SEO expert; new ‘trust’ calisthenics for the PR pro. It was what, a year later, that “content marketing” became all of the rage… Most of my time employed at this association was spent working, often closely, with a leader whose knowledge about and respect for the organization, its membership, employee base and external publics (e.g., the Ontario Government) was unparalleled. This individual is incredibly smart, yet self-effacing, and a beautiful writer and speaker. But what I appreciated the most was his kindness and generosity in encouraging and nurturing me in various communication roles. I spent many after-hours in his office, where we would discuss an incredibly wide range of topics and interests, often unrelated to our association work. He appeared as interested in my thoughts and opinions as I was in his. I still cherish that time and it was one reason I was so incredibly sad when he decided to retire—as were other staff. And the culture of the organization definitely changed with the next CEO, which I’ve come to learn is the norm. Both my education and work experience help me as a current online information curator and community builder thanks to honed skills and abilities in research, critical thinking, determining interesting subject experts (to profile and/or recruit as writers) and, in particular, building genuine relationships with various stakeholders. It’s gratifying how many past member officials and staff, columnists and profile subjects I worked with continue to send me a LinkedIn invitation. Has your understanding or appreciation for public relations evolved or changed in recent years? If yes, how and why? Definitely, in two areas: internal communications and corporate culture (as determined by the current leader at the top). To backtrack a bit, when I was employed in-house in a “public relations” role, I knew that media relations, although important, was only one area in the relationship building and reputation profile efforts. And for most companies if media relations “My education and work experience help me as a current online information curator and community builder thanks to honed skills and abilities in research.”
- 6. Part 1. Global Public Relations Business Heroes 6 is not related to a new product or service or some other kind of broadcast announcement, generally it’s on the other side of the equation, an operational or executive-performance crisis or another need for reputation and issues management. It’s rare that media relations revolve around the daily narrative of an organization—as a business editor or journalist would say, “Why should I care about that? Why would our readership care?” In addition to speechwriting and briefing notes for officials, the occasional media release, new or revised information booklets or other written communication, most of my time was spent on building external relationships and helping to “relate” and grow an understanding about the many ways an organization can assist and interact with various stakeholders and publics in a non-commerce capacity. This may not be particularly newsworthy from a media perspective, but it’s definitely valuable for the organizations and individuals concerned. It’s also very gratifying work. Some of my favourite publics included the charity of choice Big Brothers, Big Sisters of Canada; a non-government agency that helped internationally trained professionals integrate into their new lives; the young adults accepted into the provincial government’s OLIP program; community tax preparation services; etc. It was curious that I thought of PR as mainly being external, as one of the first things I did when I assumed the editorship of the major publication at my longest employer (in a communication management role) was a series of articles focusing on each department of the organization, so that the external membership could get to know the actual people on staff better. Yet when I moved to the PR role, at first I didn’t really think of this important internal public as being a major part of the public relations strategy. This changed, somewhat, when I was a key staff member in a comprehensive branding exercise, in particular when we held very successful “brand champions” workshops for all employees. What really evolved my thinking was becoming involved with PR Conversations and getting to know some global thinkers who focus on internal communication in regards to its external impact. Many of them were the original principals or commenters of our blog. My influencers measure the results or outcomes in numerous ways to prove value. Particularly in regards to social media, many marketers like to talk about breaking down silos between corporate communications and marketing, believing the lines
- 7. Part 1. Global Public Relations Business Heroes 7 have blurred. I’ve actually evolved to thinking the superior disruption is to increase the integration between internal and external communication, so that what is being related outside more closely resembles what happens inside. And the importance of corporate culture and values that are actually practised are part of this relating equation. It’s why I am so fond of the IBM on Brand video that Jon Iwata did. I’ve witnessed first hand how a corporate culture can change, depending on the leader. The impact is quite dramatic, including general mood, productivity and attrition rate (low or high) of this very important internal public. Being the public relations lead for a company with a well-defined and differentiated mission, corporate culture and values is quite easy. It’s telling how often it’s a marketing-and-profits-driven culture (stemming from the leader with the big pay cheque and obligations to shareholders first and foremost) where the re-verse is true. You advocate for precision in language when individuals indicate their area(s) of expertise, in particular when declaring themselves to be public relations specialists. What is your rationale for this? Public relations is an unregulated and unlicensed area of practice or discipline. Within larger organizations it’s less of a problem, because HR departments draw up clearly defined positions and duties and will hire for desired skills and attributes for communication roles. Leadership also plays a part in determining where resources are deployed. For smaller companies this may mean one, maybe two, individuals who spend most of their time “marketing” the products or services, with less of a perceived need for the intangible values of reputation management and ongoing relationships. Alternatively, functions are outsourced to agencies or consultants. A lot of the disconnect about what the discipline focuses on comes externally from the general public whose understanding of public relations is imprecise or related to stereotypes such as “spin doctors.” In my estimation the majority of agencies market services and bill for marketing communications (marcom) for consumer products, but they label their services as “PR.” There are specialized skill sets for other areas, such as straightforward publicity for books, films or celebrities (includ-ing planning special launch events). It’s no wonder the general public is dismissive or confused and why national PR associations wrestle in formulating an umbrella definition. “Superior disruption is to increase the integration between internal and external communication, so that what is being related outside more closely resembles what happens inside.”
- 8. Part 1. Global Public Relations Business Heroes 8 In no way am I dismissing the value of people who possess experience and a de-fined skill set in media relations (or blogger relations), publicity or marketing com-munications. I simply wish they would be more precise and honest in “selling” their services, instead of claiming the title of public relations and declaring that PR is simply a tactical function of marketing. It was my colleague and friend Sean Williams who coined, “All marketing is commu-nication, but not all communication is marketing,” but I can attest through my own experience this is true. And this included working side-by-side with a great market-ing colleague when we had similar objectives. For me, communications comes down to two main groupings: advertising and marketing; and corporate communications (public relations and internal com-munications). Some functions, such as media relations, span both areas. Others, such as crisis communications and reputation management, land squarely in the corporate communications camp (although some agencies and consultants spe-cialize in these areas). Of course I can see how if you’re a boutique agency that focuses on marketing communications, claiming crisis communications services is enticing, but unless you have people on staff with actual experience in reputation management, it’s disingenuous. I do not describe myself as a marketer or a financial communications (i.e., investor relations) specialist. My orientation claims (and what I write about) are specific to my experience and knowledge. We often reflect together about the need to separate the wheat from the chaff. Are there any new social media concepts relating to roles and functions that simply make you crazy? It’s not particularly new, but the idea of social media accounts “playing” to an “au-dience” goes against the concept of two-way communication and engagement. The popular use of terms like “fans” probably doesn’t help in the democratization of knowledge and opinions inherent in social. But the more-recent term that is making me crazy is “employee brand” or “em-ployee advocate”, particularly as it relates to the expectation that every employee active in social media must do so mindfully for marketing or sales purposes. “For me, communications comes down to two main groupings: advertising and marketing; and corporate communications. Some functions, such as media relations, span both areas.”
- 9. Part 1. Global Public Relations Business Heroes 9 If someone is hired to work in accounting or customer service or analytics, he or she is employed for a specific skill set, not an expectation to “sell” or even advocate for the company’s product or service, particularly on personal LinkedIn or Twitter accounts. I think claiming otherwise is disrespectful, both to departments focused on specific functions and to individuals who were actually hired for marketing, sales or business development. I hope the wiser heads of leadership (including HR) reject this “advice” from social media consultants. One final thing: People, please stop referring to “traditional public relations” when what you mean is mainstream media relations versus newer digital options, such as blogger relations, community building and content marketing. Since this original in-terview, I was inspired to write a PR Conversations post about the topic; it garnered some wonderful thinking in the comments section. You are referred to as a “thought leader” in public relations and and/or social media. Do you consider yourself a thought leader? This question provoked some deep thinking. In my mind true thought leaders pursue areas of interest, often in relative isolation, because they believe in exploring the concept of innovation itself, not as a way of making money or garnering followers/fans or somehow positioning themselves for mindshare. Later it might result in a new product or service or definitive research or best-selling book (Nicholas Carr’s Pulitzer Prize-nominated The Shallows comes to mind), but at the front end it needs to be a fairly organic and inherently ethical process to become a thought leader: Artlessly leading the thoughts of others into new pastures to graze and reflect upon and perhaps implement. And I think true thought leaders are a fairly rare breed. For the most part, I believe my skills relate to making connections and giving other people’s original ideas carriage (with full attribution); alternatively, pursuing my own mindful or deliberate point of view that may go against conventional wisdom or normative understanding. For example, as my public relations appreciation for internal communications and corporate culture/values inspired by great leadership grew, I would write articles on a concept or regularly insert a snippet and link into a Twitter chat (or via a hashtag such as #internalcomms) about them where appropriate. “In my mind true thought leaders pursue areas of interest, often in relative isolation, because they believe in exploring the concept or innovation itself, not as a way of somehow positioning themselves for mindshare.”
- 10. Part 1. Global Public Relations Business Heroes 10 If I can persuade a CEO or marketing colleague to better appreciate the value of internal staff relationships and communication for non-transactional purposes, whether online or off, that’s a victory in evolving thought. Of course the inherent challenge is that you can’t stop people from cherry picking your thinking to suit their own purposes. As I indicated above, a marketer taking the concept of “insourcing” public relations and communication and deciding it’s a great “social media strategy” to turn all staff into “employee brands” or “advocates” for marketing or sales purposes when they weren’t hired to do this, is an approach that is disingenuous to my thought processes. And I don’t think it is particularly organic or principled from the social media authority, either. Now back to the question of whether I believe myself to be a thought leader, per-haps in small ways. For example, from a public relations perspective, I’m reasonably certain I’m the first person to explore the concept of an organizational narrative, rather than simply “telling stories” about a company. The PR Conversations post took me a long time to research and write, and garnered a ton of comments and feedback. And my thoughts sparked Heather Yaxley to explore the concept from a digital perspective. More recently, from a social media standpoint, deliberately employing a consistent voice about my evolving thinking and opinions across various platforms, whether our global blog or wherever I agree to do a guest post or interview, plus linking back and forth to establish ownership of my professional and personal brand output and perceived influence outcomes. I believe this now-deliberate process—in the beginning it was organic, primarily be-tween my social PR column (that I wrote for two years) and group blog—is fairly unique. Most people writing guest posts or being interviewed seem to provide different iterations on the same concepts (perhaps drawn from a new book), rather than growing their body of thinking in different places—fanning it out, per se. I did this in the above paragraphs for illustrative purposes, specifically related to the idea of thought leadership. Some third-party companies (i.e., not employers or clients) occasionally bestow the title of thought leader or influencer on me—which is flattering. But similar to being put on a “marketing” or “HR”(!) list by someone, to really be a tribute it needs to be appropriate, relating to my areas of expertise, original thinking and mindful orienta-tion. “If I can persuade a CEO or marketing colleague to better appreciate the value of internal staff relationships and communication for non-transactional purposes, whether online or off, that’s a victory in evolving thought.”
- 11. Part 1. Global Public Relations Business Heroes 11 In 2013 I had an interesting experience with Traackr, an “influencer marketing plat-form that helps you get results with social media marketing by finding the right influencers and opportunities,” when its lead researcher decided to include me as one of the three (the only female) in its Agitator category in its The Many Faces of Influence document (register to download the free ebook). In both the name and the descriptor, I found the concept of being controversial for its own sake untrue to my sense of self or beliefs; there has to be some overarching rationale and goals to go against the crowd. It was gratifying to be able to persuade individuals, such as Traackr’s founder to rethink the category name and description to one that I could embrace. I’m now content to be a designated Disruptor: “Disruptors challenge the status quo and force us to talk about the real issues and opportunities that change brings. They love to understand what’s behind trends, get to the heart of issues and envi-sion new solutions. Their audience has come to expect them to stir the pot and ask the tough questions.” Only recently did I notice the Twitter bio of Traackr’s CEO, Pierre-Loic Assayag, indicates he is Chief Disruptor, so obviously the influencer company thinks being a disruptor is a good thing. A longer, looser affiliation with Traackr is my inclusion on its PR2.0 lnfluencer list (for clients), something that was brought to my attention by Toronto colleague, Deborah Weinstein (CEO of the Strategic Objectives agency) about three years ago. I’ve been on that list almost continuously since that time, including enjoying a multiple month “run” in the pole position in 2013. Despite asking, I’ve never been told how I was selected to be on the Traackr PR2.0 list in the first place. I leave it up to others to decide whether my ongoing inclusion is appropriate in regard to public relations thought leadership or true influence. “Disruptors challenge the status quo and force us to talk about the real issues and opportunities that change brings.”
- 12. About Paper.li Business Heroes Behind every great business stands an even greater community. Our Paper.li Business Heroes program recognizes the extraordinary people within our community who put their best selves forward each day to inspire and guide others in finding answers to questions and solutions for to problems. About Paper.li Paper.li provides a no-hassle approach to monitoring topics and content across the social web. Through advanced semantic analysis, we process more than 250 million social media posts in eight languages to delivering fresh content to small businesses, enterprise organizations, teams and communities worldwide, daily.