Gordie Lockbaum transcript

“60-Minute Man”: An Interview with Gordon “Gordie”
Lockbaum, Class of ‘88
“Some football observer once said of Gordon, that if it were a pick-up game in the backyard,
every coach in America would choose Gordon Lockbaum.” –John Gearan, Worcester Telegram,
December 6, 1987
“I just wanted to play sports. I wanted to play at a high level. I wanted to be the best I could. I
wanted to score, I wanted to play, I wanted to hit.” –Gordie Lockbaum
Joseph Tutino
The History of Holy Cross
Fr. Anthony J. Kuzniewski, S.J.
April 4, 2011

2

All-American. Heisman Trophy finalist. Successful businessman. Family man. Many
words may be used to describe Gordon “Gordie” Lockbaum, Class of 1988, but the one
association he is most proud of is being a Holy Cross man, a Holy Cross Crusader.
Born on November 16, 1965 to Robert and Marie Lockbaum in Media, Pennsylvania, a
suburb of Philadelphia, Lockbaum wrestled and played baseball and football for the Glassboro
High School Bulldogs in Glassboro, New Jersey, earning a scholarship to play football at the
College of the Holy Cross in 1984 after receiving offers from Pennsylvania State University,
Syracuse University and the United States Naval Academy. Recruited by then-head coach Rick
Carter as a defensive back out of high school, Lockbaum operated primarily under Carter’s
defensive-minded approach in the defensive backfield through his freshman and sophomore
seasons; Carter’s teams went 8-3 in 1984 and 4-6-1 in 1985.1
February 2, 1986 was a day that forever changed the face of Holy Cross Football. On the
morning of the annual football banquet, forty-two year old Rick Carter, head coach at Holy
Cross for all of five seasons, and a head coach in the college ranks from the time he was twenty-
three, hanged himself in his West Boylston, Massachusetts home, leaving behind his wife, his
two sons and a football team.2
Deemed to be a striking blow to the College community and the
team, Coach Carter’s death brought a sense of unity to the squad that only drove Lockbaum and
his teammates to be better, a unity that was fostered by the leadership of Mark Duffner. The
thirty-three year old defensive coordinator Mark Duffner, a standout at the College of William

1
1987 Colonial League Football Media Guide, ACHC, 18.10A, Series 3, File 4, Box 33. From here forward, any
articles that are attributed to the Archives of The College of the Holy Cross [ACHC] were found in R.G. 18.10A,
Box 33, unless noted otherwise.
2
Dave Anderson, “Sports Of The Times; The Phone Stopped Ringing,” New York Times, February 9, 1985,
accessed April, 2011, http://www.nytimes.com/1986/02/09/opinion/sports-of-the-times-the-phone-stopped-
ringing.html.

3

and Mary and a one-time assistant at Ohio State under head coach Woody Hayes, was thrust into
the head coaching job within a week of Carter’s death. Duffner was charged with not only
coaching a football team, but healing the minds and hearts of young men who had great
relationships with the affable Carter.3
Under Duffner, the offense evolved into a “run and shoot” style that emphasized
backfield motion that suited the shifty style of Lockbaum. At the end of his career, he held
numerous school records, including points in a season (132) and a career (264), touchdowns in a
season (22) and a career (44), all-purpose yards in a season (2,173), receptions in a game (15),
season (78) and career (135), yards gained via reception in a season (1,152) and career (2,012).4
Not only did Lockbaum develop into an offensive threat, but he continued to play in the
defensive backfield, becoming the first two-way starter in collegiate football since Leroy Keyes
of Purdue University did it in 1968.5
He finished in fifth place in the Heisman Trophy voting
behind such notables as Vinny Testaverde of the University of Miami and Brian Bosworth of the
University of Oklahoma in 1986, and he finished in third place behind Tim Brown of the
University of Notre Dame and Don McPherson of Syracuse University in 1987. Lockbaum
graduated from Holy Cross in 1988 with a Bachelor’s degree in Economics. He was drafted by
the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 9th
round of the 1988 National Football League Draft, spending
time in preseason camps with the Steelers (1988) and the Buffalo Bills (1989) before embarking

3
1987 Colonial League Football Media Guide, ACHC, 18.10A.
4
“Gordon C. Lockbaum,” Holy Cross Hall of Fame, accessed March, 2011,
http://www.goholycross.com/hallfame/Gordon_C._Lockbaum.
5
Rick Reilly, “A Wonderful Throwback,” Sports Illustrated, November 10, 1986, accessed March, 2011,
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1065445/index.htm.

4

on a distinguished career in insurance. He was elected to the Holy Cross Varsity Club Hall of
Fame in 1993 and the College Football Hall of Fame in 2001.6
What Lockbaum, Duffner and Holy Cross Football orchestrated in the fall of 1986 and
1987—a combined 21-1 record and a #1 ranking in NCAA Division I-AA—was nothing short of
amazing, considering the circumstances the team had to deal with. In September of 1983, Father
John Brooks, S.J., the twenty-ninth President of Holy Cross, made the decision to place Holy
Cross among the members of the Colonial League, an athletic conference that included Bucknell
University, Colgate University, Lafayette College, Lehigh University and, for a brief time,
Davidson University; the move was intended to “speak loudly and clearly to the academic
community, and might lead others to correct the many abuses we’re presently seeing [in college
athletics].”7
That same year, the team had become eligible for the I-AA playoffs for the first
time, but the ultimate consequence of joining the Colonial League was that, starting in 1989,
Holy Cross would cease to offer athletic scholarship, opting to give need-based aid to incoming
athletes in order to comply with league standards.8
Another consequence was the loss of the
annual November contest with Boston College, a rivalry between the two Jesuit institutions that
dated back to 1896.9
Once considered a powerhouse in the East, Holy Cross Football was
steadily becoming a second-tier program or, as People Magazine put it, “football’s Albania.”10

6
Holy Cross Hall of Fame.
7
Anthony Kuzniewski, S.J., Thy Honored Name: A History of The College of the Holy Cross 1843-1994
(Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1999), 471-472; The Colonial League became the
Patriot League in 1991.
8
Ibid; footnoted by Kuzniewski, S.J. as Brooks notes on conversations with A.J. Marucha, October 25, 1982, and
March 15, 1983, ACHC, 12.25.
9
For an in-depth examination of the rivalry: Wally Carew, A Farewell to Glory: The Rise and Fall of an Epic
Football Rivalry - Boston College vs. Holy Cross (Worcester: Ambassador Books, 2003).
10
Jack Friedman, “Gordie Lockbaum Is Offensive, Then He's Defensive—Who Says He Can't Have It Both
Ways?,” People Magazine, November 2, 1987, accessed March, 2011,
http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20097484,00.html.

5

The focus of my interview with Gordie, however, has very little to do with statistics or
awards. The state of college football and college athletics in the United States has evolved
considerably over the last twenty-five years since that 1987 undefeated season at Mount Saint
James. After Mark Duffner left for a head coaching job at the University of Maryland in 1991,
the Crusaders experienced futility over the course of the next decade, compiling a 36-73 record
overall and a 23-33 record in the Patriot League from 1992 to 2001; they would not win another
Patriot League Championship until the 2009 season.11
My intention was to delve into Gordie’s
career, the 1987 season and explore what it meant to be a scholarship athlete in a time when
Father Brooks and the College Administration desired a path away from the scourge of “big-
time” college athletics. In that context, I also wanted to get his thoughts on the existence of the
student-athlete today and if, in light of recent developments in college athletics (i.e. illegal
recruiting, sparse academic standards and other rules infractions), Holy Cross would ever have
(or even want) a chance again to be a part of the major college athletic landscape again,
especially the football team. Was the 1987 campaign the “last hurrah” for Holy Cross Football?
On April 4, 2011, I made my way down I-290 East to the 10th
floor offices of the Sullivan
Insurance Group at 10 Chestnut Street in Worcester where Lockbaum is employed as Vice
President. As thunder and lightning clapped outside, I sat back in a plush leather chair in
Lockbaum’s office, surrounded by plaques and well-wishes of accomplishments past, including
All-America and College Hall of Fame memorabilia. As a one-time walk-on and current
manager for the football team, I appreciated the opportunity to sit down with one of the all-time
greats in Holy Cross and New England football history. A third generation Crusader, I had long
heard stories from my dad, Class of ’82, and my uncle, Class of ’73, about the exploits of #17 on

11
“All-Time Results,” GoHolyCross.com, accessed April, 2011, http://www.goholycross.com/sports/m-
footbl/archive_files/results.pdf.

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Fitton Field, the same Fitton Field where I watched teams under Head Coaches Peter Vaas and
Dan Allen fail to live up to the excellence of the Lockbaum Era during the 1990s and into the
2000s.12
Lockbaum has given hundreds upon hundreds of interviews over the last twenty-five
years, but few of those interviews have dealt with Lockbaum the person as opposed to Lockbaum
the player. As Holy Cross Football and the Patriot League enter another decade of intercollegiate
play, I hope this interview with Gordie Lockbaum may serve as an important research tool for
future generations of Crusaders interested in the “glory days” of Holy Cross Football, the ever
evolving landscape of collegiate athletics and the true meaning of “student-athlete.”

12
Peter Vaas ‘74 was Head Coach from 1992 to 1995. Dan Allen, an assistant under Carter and Duffner, was Head
Coach from 1996 to 2003 (http://www.goholycross.com/sports/m-footbl/archive_files/coaches.pdf).

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Joseph Tutino (JT): All right; let’s get this started! I know we’re coming up on the 25th
anniversary of that 1987 season when you went 11-0. Lambert Cup champions. Colonial
League champions. You were declared National Champions. You know, the list goes on
and on. Your personal accomplishments are, you know, beyond anything you probably
could have ever imagined. But starting out as a high school player coming out of Glassboro
High School, you had dreams of playing major college football, maybe for Penn State and
Joe Paterno. Why did you choose Holy Cross?
Gordie Lockbaum (GL): Well, the recruiting process was pretty broad in scope. I looked at
several schools within a three to five hundred mile radius of Glassboro. I tried to stay somewhat
local. I’m one of seven kids. I had parents that were very involved and loving and supportive that
I wanted to be accessible to while I was in college.
I tried to limit my scope to the East Coast and there were plenty of opportunities. I looked
at…Holy Cross was obviously one. Syracuse was actually the first school to step up and offer me
a scholarship—very early in the process as a matter of fact. Then Holy Cross was in, Delaware,
William & Mary, Rutgers. You know, Penn State recruited me pretty heavily, but they backed
off when a local similar-type player accepted a scholarship. I went through the process and get
my appointment to Annapolis, the Naval Academy.
So I had some various types of schools, including some I-A schools and, ultimately, Holy Cross
won me over for a whole host of reasons, but I wasn’t very familiar with them, quite honestly.
But, fortunately, Mark Duffner was the fellow who recruited me and he was very articulate,
really painted a picture of the type of program that Holy Cross was and hoped to become. And it
accomplished a lot of the goals I felt were inside of me.
JT: All right. Obviously, Coach Mark Duffner was great, influential, especially after the
tragedy—February 2, 1986—when Coach Rick Carter unfortunately suffered a tragic
death.13
I know that was the day of the banquet you guys were supposed to go to. When I
looked through all the articles up in the archives, no one ever puts a negative spin on it; it’s
always a positive spin.14
After that happened, the team really came together. How so? Can
you take me through what that was like back in ’86?
GL: Sure. I think that you’ve got to understand that, from the time that happened, Mark Duffner
was kind of thrust into the role of head coach, of spokesman, the leader, the go-to guy. And as a
young person at that time—he was only probably in his thirties—he did an exceptional job and a
remarkable job, to say the least. So, obviously, we were going to take on that type of an
approach, and his approach was always half-full. Always the positive. Although he was a very
diligent coach and stayed on top of you and pointed out your mistakes on film and such, it was
always with a positive spin to make you better and we always bought in to what he was trying to

13
Anderson.
14
Reilly.

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accomplish. So what you would read would only be positive because that’s all we heard was
positive.
I can tell you personally that’s not all we felt was positive. So, if that’s your question, I’d be
happy to speak about that because I think that you’ve got to understand you’re talking about kids
who are eighteen to twenty-two years old who have not, you know…ninety-nine out of a
hundred guys haven’t experienced anything like this. Across the board, generally speaking, we
have two parents that are both alive, probably have grandparents who are still alive at that age.
We are very self-focused and in our own world, so to speak, playing football, going to school
and class and developing our social relationships on campus. So, to have something like that
happen really threw us for a big spin and really tripped us up. And I know it did me because you
had the questions of, you know, of why.
Being a young guy, we’re self-centered. You’re selfish in many ways. How did I contribute to
this happening? Because he’s a football coach. We didn’t even contemplate any of the emotional
or personal issues he may have even had at the time. To me, anyway, we went 4-6-1 the year
before. How did what I do on the field contribute towards pushing him to lose it and do what he
did? So, to say that it’s all positive, yeah, you probably are going to see that positive side.
But I’ve got to tell you, for a lot of us, it was a very confusing time. But, fortunately, we had a
guy who had come up from within the program that really had our trust, had the ability to
embrace us and shepherd us through the process of really healing and then moving on. And,
thank God, God put a lot of victories in our immediate future because certainly that was, that
helped in the healing process.
JT: Absolutely. And when you said Coach Duffner was the “glass-half-full” guy, he was
just, you know, going off that, he was young, optimistic, hungry for victory, but he was
realistic of the situation he was put in. A couple of instances I saw in some articles…I know
Ron George, your teammate, talked about missing banana pie the week of the Villanova
game; he was disappointed he couldn’t go to the Duffners’ house to eat that.15
And, also,
Jim Miller was also a senior, said that when Duffner was recruiting him, that Coach
Duffner said he would be like a father AND a mother to him.16
So, if you could talk more about Coach Duffner and what it meant, you know, to come
through this system. He was really a big-time guy. He came from Ohio State; he had
coached at Cincinnati, played at William & Mary. Coach Duffner as a person; I know you
already said he was a “glass-half-full” kind of guy. What was it like for him coming right
in?

15
Bill Doyle, “HC players to miss banana pie tonight,” Worcester Evening Gazette, November 19, 1987, ACHC,
18.10A.
16
John Gearan, “HC’s Miller Big Man With A Big Heart,” Worcester Telegram, October, 29, 1987, ACHC, 18.10A.

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GL: Well, I think any coach is going to try to build on a couple of words, and one of the words
had got to be tradition. Most coaches are going to like to look back and find some tradition or
something that they can build on at a school. And another one that comes to mind is family. It’s a
very cliché term that we’re a big family and so forth. But I think it’s used universally for any
team that we’re a family, we’re a family. Coach Duffner used it, but I don’t think he used it in a
form of salesmanship. I think he used it in a form of what his mission statement would be. If our
football program is a business, it would be part of his mission statement and very close to the
first few words of the sentence for sure because he loved mentoring young men.
You know, he watched what we said, how we walked, how we acted, how we cared about one
another. He took note of all those things and he tried to enhance and build upon that kind of
stuff. Now, does that make us more suited to do the things that we needed to on the field? Of
course. But, I think he genuinely loved that part of being a coach. I don’t think you can just
throw the word out there “we’re a family” and everybody’s just going to go, yeah, I care about
the guy next to me. It has to be demonstrated by the guys at the top.
Now, he obviously would be the dad or the mom, the parent role on that team, but he had some
second-tier guys where he built a coaching staff that completely bought in as well, and a good
ability to convey that right down the line. Because you can’t just have one guy at the top just
barking out orders and have a group of coaches who don’t buy in and allow that to flow through
to the players because it’s not going to work. You know, you still have to walk the talk, and if
you’re just going to say things. A lot of coaches say things, and if they don’t follow through, and
if they don’t walk the talk, it just dissipates into the air.
And Coach Duffner didn’t do that. He demonstrated every day, he built a coaching staff that
conveyed it and was a great liaison to all those principles and ideals that he had of what he
wanted his program to be. And those guys, if you look at where they’re at now, they’ve really
had a lot of success; they assembled a great staff.17
I think Coach Carter’s got to be credited; a lot
of those guys were already there.
JT: Right, absolutely. Did they make…did they buy into this philosophy of the student-
athlete, or were they more of just simply, you know, focusing on the athlete, and then you
take care of your studies? How did they foster that kind of relationship?

17
At the present, Head Coach Mark Duffner is the linebackers coach for the NFL’s Jacksonville Jaguars. He has
enjoyed post-Holy Cross positions at the University of Maryland (Head Coach, 1992-1996) and the NFL’s
Cincinnati Bengals (defensive coordinator, linebackers coach, 1997-2002) and Green Bay Packers (linebackers
coach, 2003-2005). His assistants during the 1987 season (with their current positions) included Dan Allen
(deceased, former Head Coach at the College of the Holy Cross, 1996-2003), Kevin Coyle (defensive backs coach,
NFL’s Cincinnati Bengals), Dennis Goldman (wide receivers coach, Princeton University), Pat McCarty (defensive
line coach, Cornell University), Tom Rossley (quarterbacks coach, Texas A&M Univeristy), Cliff Schwenke
(retired, former linebackers coach, University of Pennsylvania) and Mike Sherman (Head Coach, Texas A&M
University, and former Head Coach, NFL’s Green Bay Packers, 2000-2005) (Compiled from NFL.com and various
athletic department websites, including Holy Cross, Princeton, Cornell, Pennsylvania and Texas A&M).

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GL: Well, I think that’s a great question because, let’s not forget, he’s a football coach. So, he
gets graded based on wins and losses and the quality of the product he puts on the football field.
He doesn’t get graded based on whether or not we get some good grades or whether or not we
have, you know, a great image on campus as a program. Now, that all helps. That helps his
discussions with his bosses, but, ultimately, he’s rated based on wins and losses. And, you know,
you can go through a couple of rough seasons at five and seven or four and eight and have a
great group of kids that everybody loves that are good students, but, ultimately, you not going to
keep your job very long. So, he’s a football coach first and foremost.
However, one of the things that really stood out in observing him, observing his introduction
and, ultimately, his sales pitch when I was in high school and then what I saw over the course of
four years is that… again, I look at him as a coach, but I also look at him as a mentor because he
really tried to influence and impact many different aspects of our lives. When you do that, I think
it really transcends and really transitions for many, many years. A lot of us have only have love
and admiration for the guy, not just because we had some victories, but because of what he
poured into us over those four years and what those coaches poured into us over those four years.
So, you know, I think he just had a great approach, had a great model and he executed it. And I
do believe he cared more about us than what we did on the football field.
But, make no mistake, when we were on the football field, he didn’t want us talking about Math
or English or anything else. He said, hey, look, I don’t want you talking about football in class,
but I don’t want you talking about class on the football field either. So, he taught us how to
segment into…set up the silos of time, and whatever you were committed to at that time, got at it
one hundred percent and make it happen.
JT: And Coach Duffner compliments you right before the season when he said that you
were a “triathlete in pads” and, obviously, rightfully so.18
Going off of what you just said,
what gave you the ability to perform at such a high level both academically? Athletically? I
know you were an Economics major and that’s no cupcake and you maintained a high
GPA as well.
GL: Well, I…the first word that comes to mind is that I’m blessed. I absolutely was blessed with
a desire to succeed athletically, and God gave me various tools, be it eye-hand coordination, be it
stamina, the ability to, you know, not to get cramped up and lactic acid to be able to whatever my
ability is, but to be able to be close to a hundred percent and recover very quickly from each play
and each half and deep into games. I’ve always been able to do that, whatever the sport is I
played. So, I’ve definitely been blessed in that respect.
And, then, from a mental approach, I’ve always had great coaches. I’ve had some really great
coaches along the way that put me in a position to succeed. And, then again, God built in that
desire to please people, coaches, and to strive to be my best—and, again, whatever that best is. I

18
Worcester Evening Telegram, April 26, 1987, ACHC, 18.10A.

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realize I’m limited to some level, but, you know, I’ve always had the ability to kind of find a way
to win or to compete or to get near the front of the race, the front of the pack just by virtue of that
competitive spirit that’s inside me.
JT: Right. And, obviously, 1987, you had eighteen returning starters; to highlight some of
them: Jeff Wiley, Tom Kelleher, Ron George, you know, the list goes on and on. What is it
like to be with teammates like that, knowing that you didn’t have to do it on your own? I
mean, if I can make a weak comparison, you know, Jimmer Fredette at BYU pretty much
has to do it on his own.19
You were fortunate, in 1987, that you had this supporting cast,
along with such a great coaching staff. What can you say about guys like Jeff Wiley, Tom
Kelleher?
GL: Well, I could look at the whole list of guys and almost go through the entire starting lineup
and just note that they’re all-conference players [GL motions toward a picture of the 1987 squad
on his office wall]. Guys like Robby McGovern and Tom Kelleher and Andy Martin—guys that
had opportunities in the pros—Lee Hull.20
So, there are just a host of people who were
professional caliber, you know, I-A players that were on this same team. It’s really a testament to
the way that the coaches, again, built that vision, recruited the right type of guys and got them in
with the benefit of athletic scholarships to build that team. We had phenomenal players. We
honestly had some phenomenal guys, guys that could’ve played at a lot of different schools at a
much higher level. And, for whatever reason, you know, they all ended up on Mount Saint
James. So, we were very fortunate, that’s for sure. But, I didn’t have to rely on them.
Now…I would say that, you know, because of what I was doing…well, let me back up. I don’t
look at myself athletically, substantially higher. Jimmer Fredette, you mentioned him, he might
be substantially more athletic than the rest of the guys on his team; they may be complementing
him to achieve what he achieved. I’m equally athletic with the guys and I just happened to be in
the right position to make plays. I played, you know, the defensive back position and I played a
running back/wide receiver that is going to get the ball and get himself in the end zone, so I’m
going to get those opportunities. I do look at, you know, being the type of guy who I think
was…I think you could say was dependable.
When I coach kids, sometimes kids are exceptionally talented, but they’re erratic. I think the
reason why Coach gave me the opportunity a lot of times…was I the best punt returner? No,

19
Jimmer Fredette was a four year starting guard for the Brigham Young University Basketball Team from 2007 to
2011 who led the NCAA in scoring and earned National Player of the Year in 2011
(http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=36409)..
20
Jeff Wiley ’89 played quarterback for Holy Cross from 1985 to 1988. Rob McGovern ’89 played linebacker for
Holy Cross from 1985 to 1989 and played six seasons in the NFL for the Kansas City Chiefs (1989-1990), the
Pittsburgh Steelers (1991) and the New England Patriots (1992-1994). Tom “Big Red” Kelleher ’88 played fullback
for Holy Cross from 1984 to 1987 and played two seasons in the NFL for the Miami Dolphins (1988) and the
Kansas City Chiefs (1990). Lee Hull ’88 played wide receiver for Holy Cross from 1984 to 1987 and played one
season in the NFL for the New England Patriots (1988) (http://www.goholycross.com/sports/m-
footbl/archive_files/pros.pdf).

12

maybe not, but am I going to catch the ball every time it’s punted to me? Probably. Am I going
to catch the kickoff? Am I going to read the blocks nine out of ten times the way it’s lined up?
You know, I might not score a touchdown on a kickoff return, but I’m going to get you out
toward the forty most times. I’m not going to fumble the ball, you know, things of that nature.
So, I think that developing that ability to be dependable for the most time and catch the ball most
of the time it’s thrown to me and, again, read blocks and make plays is just the type of thing
coaches look towards. They don’t want big highs and low lows. They want something they can
count on.
So, I was on a team with a tremendous amount of supporting talent and talent that was great in
their own rights, and, if you pull me out of the equation, somebody else probably could have
stepped in. So, did it eliminate a lot of the pressure? Yeah. It created more competition. I know I
can tell you that because the guys, you had a lot of guys that wanted, needed the ball. That’s for
sure. [Yeah.] They had that much talent.
JT: I remember when I was looking through all of the stuff, it said that there were guys
who came in…the Lehigh game, for example.21
You guys put up sixty-three-something
points, and there’s just guys who just come in and keep doing the same thing. Coach
Duffner said “well, there’s nothing I can do, they all want to play, and they’re all going to
play well.”22
GL: Willie Bradford and Mark Webb and just…Joe Segreti, Mark Gallagher.23
You’ve got these
freshman guys that are third teamers, second teamers that come in at the end of a game and
they’re freaking out. They’re like “I’m in the game,” and then they go in there and they could
compete against the starters of the other team and put the ball in the end zone. We’d be sitting on
the bench, you know, cheering them on, but the other coaches would be upset, but we couldn’t
hold back. You couldn’t hold back these guys. They were like caged animals. They were ready
to get on the field. [Yeah.] They couldn’t wait. And they were great athletes, so that’s why they
had that success right through ’90 and ’91, so…
JT: Right, absolutely. In 1986, the New York Times declared you guys national champions.
You talked about being dependable, and I was looking through the 1987 Colonial League
Media Guide and they said, “Of course, many will argue that last year’s 10-1 finish was the
finest.”24
What were the expectations for 1987 after such a great season, and what was the

21
“COLLEGE FOOTBALL; Holy Cross Rolls, 63-6,” New York Times, September 27, 1987, accessed May, 2011,
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/27/sports/college-football-holy-cross-rolls-63-6.html?src=pm.
22
Paraphrase from article by Tim Connolly, “Is player aid a big reason HC is No.1?,” Worcester Evening Gazette,
September 29, 1987, ACHC, 18.10A.
23
Willie Bradford ’90 played running back for Holy Cross from 1986 to 1989. Keith Webb ’91 played fullback for
Holy Cross from 1987 to 1990. Joe Segreti ’91 played running back for Holy Cross from 1987 to 1990. Mark
Gallagher ’91 played quarterback for Holy Cross from 1987 to 1990 (http://www.goholycross.com/sports/m-
footbl/archive_files/letters.pdf).
24
1987 Colonial League Football Media Guide, ACHC, 18.10A.

13

spirit on campus and in the city during that time? It’s a turning point in college athletics
where, you know, BC’s going to this big time, huge stadium, and then you have Holy Cross
who still has these scholarship players, but they’re moving toward a I-AA schedule, they’re
playing the Ivies, the Colonial League opponents. What was the spirit like at that time,
especially going into that 1987 season?
GL: Well, 1986…you contrast 1986 and ‘87. 1986 was being an underdog, ‘cause we came off a
poor season…we graduated a lot of good players and we had a lot of new guys stepping in, so
we’re kind of the underdog, and, you know, “we’ll see what happens” kind of a thing. Then we
had that awesome season.
Well, they took a different approach [in 1987]. They did accept that, you know we were going to
be good and they had all the returners. So, really, what the approach the coaches took was that
“you guys are excellent players, our goal is to win every game, one at a time, and we’ve just got
to stay healthy, prepare, and be the best we can be each and every week.” And that’s what he did.
We couldn’t be called the underdog any more, but what he did do was he motivated us in other
ways, and Mark Duffner had a lot of funny ways of motivating the team, and many of them were
kooky and kind of, you know, just…I don’t know, they were kooky! But he found ways to get us
going and pump us up and…but we knew that we had an advantage just based on talent, based
on a great coaching staff, but that it meant “get out there and execute.” And they challenged us in
other ways to rise to the occasion and seemed to do it each and every week.
JT: I remember I saw a picture of him in spring practice in ’87.25
He strapped on pads and
he was going up against the linemen and he pancaked one of the guys in one of the pictures
on there…
GL: Yeah, he did a lot of funny stuff and…so, what was it like at that time? We were fired up.
We enjoyed competing against the league opponents. We loved playing the Ivies. And we were
looking forward to being on ESPN against Villanova at the end of the season. So there seemed to
be a great following, the city was behind us, we used to get some pretty big crowds and it was
something, really, to be enjoyed and there was…there was a lot of buzz. And we were single-
minded. We were focused and the team was definitely clicking on all cylinders that year.
JT: Right. Just running down the season, I know you blew out pretty much everyone,
except for Army, which was a I-A opponent. Obviously, at Army, you were on the field for
one hundred and forty…over one hundred and forty plays.26
What was that like?
That’s…crazy!

25
Photograph is at ACHC, 18.10A, Series 3, File 4, Box 33, Folder 2.
26
Dick Weiss, “At Holy Cross, There’s Hope, Not Much Hype For Heisman,” Philadelphia Daily News, September
10, 1987, accessed April, 2011, http://articles.philly.com/1987-09-10/sports/26210267_1_gordie-lockbaum-

14

GL: Yeah, it was fun! I mean, I enjoyed being on the field. I played two ways from the time I
was a young kid and, coming out of a small high school, we basically would, you know, if we
stopped the other opponent, we would receive the punt and, basically, one guy would run off the
field—a lineman would run off, the quarterback would run on—and, basically, we had nine or
ten guys go both ways, and that, basically, for three years I was there, you know, that’s the way
we did it in high school. So, I always liked to play both ways. I had that acumen, that
understanding of the game and I thought it made me a better player. I thought being a better
defensive player made me a better offensive player. And then being a better offensive player
made me a better defensive player; I thought they helped each other out. So, I always enjoyed
playing both ways and it was something I always wanted to do, and, to have that opportunity,
was just incredible. It was just incredible.
JT: One of those games was Dartmouth; you blew them out 62-23.27
You scored six
touchdowns. I’m not sure if this is true or not, I have to get this out of the way: My dad
graduated in ’82 from Holy Cross and, yet, he was at this game. I’m not sure if this was the
game, but he said that…were Dartmouth fans throwing fruit at you?
GL: [GL laughs] That was at Dartmouth. We threw a screen out to the left flat on the first play of
the game and I broke a tackle and went for a touchdown. And, yes, they were throwing things at
me as I was running down the sideline, ‘cause I was running down their sideline, and that was
about a, I forget, about a maybe an eighty yard touchdown or so. But it was, it was…yes, they
were throwing things at me. [We laugh.] Which I think is awesome! I think it’s kind of funny
actually.
JT: That leads me up to, you know, when I was looking through all the stuff, I would have
expected Boston media saying “this is great and everything.” By the time you got to your
third and fourth game—you were blowing through Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Dartmouth,
get up to Bucknell when you had won the Colonial League Championship--people started
saying that you were running up the score.
Now, I know the team was overly talented and you were playing against teams that didn’t
have scholarships. In ’87, you outscored opponents 511-110; in Colonial League play alone,
you outscored teams 200-34. Even Will McDonough of the Boston Globe was questioning
the integrity of Father Brooks for dropping B.C. the year before, and then coming out and

heisman-voting-holy-cross. Lockbaum was on the field for a total of 143 plays during a 17-14 upset at Army as a
junior in 1986.
27
Ibid.

15

blowing out these Colonial League teams.28
Did you ever think of the criticism you guys
were getting about this? Or was this just something I was reading about in the paper?29
GL: Yeah, well, I think it was mostly noise, you know. [Yeah.] I think that one of the things that,
again, back to the coaching staff, they did a really good job, it was kind of insulating us from a
lot of different things. The media department—Gregg Burke and Jeff Nelson—did a phenomenal
job of insulating us, you know, and feeding us what we wanted to hear, too.30
I mean, part of
being a coach and being responsible for a group of a hundred guys is to kind of mold their
thought processes, and that’s a big part of athletics. And they did a great job of it.
We didn’t think we were blowing anybody out on purpose. We thought we were just doing what
we were told and we were hitting on all cylinders. We were substituting by midway through the
third quarter and, you know, our offense was a run-and-shoot offense, so you’re not going to go
in and hand the ball off and try to run a pro set with your second and third teamers if that’s what
you run for an offense.
So, you know, would I think differently now if I were sitting up in the stands? I don’t know. I
don’t know. Maybe. But, at that point, I didn’t even hear that, that out and running them up. I
didn’t even occur to me. [Just noise.] Just noise.
JT: Now going back to ’87, the overall picture of things. ’87’s the season where…we just
had an ESPN 30 for 30 about “Pony Excess”—SMU, their whole season was wiped out.31
Brian Bosworth—“the Boz.” Miami. What was it like knowing you were being exposed in
the media at their level, but for entirely different reasons? You were doing everything the
“right” way. And does the true “student-athlete” exist anymore in big-time college
football?
GL: Well, I think it’s a really good question, and you can see when you start to see these type of
stories and watch them and how deplorable some of the activities that are going on behind the
scenes are to why Father [John] Brooks felt the way he did about this cesspool of college
athletics.32
So, you kind of understand. I always felt—and I still feel—you can do it right. I think

28
Will McDonough, “Did It Happen That Way?,” Boston Globe, November 7, 1987, ACHC, 18.10A.
29
Two great sources of this “noise:” John Buckley, “HC takes the air out of the Colonial League,” Worcester
Evening Gazette, October 19, 1987; Bill Doyle, “HC is No. 1—just for now,” Worcester Evening Gazette,
November 6, 1987, ACHC, 18.10A.
30
Gregg Burke ‘80 served as Sports Information Director at Holy Cross from 1982 to 1987. He currently serves as
the Deputy Director of Athletics at the University of Rhode Island
(http://www.gorhody.com/genrel/burke_gregg00.html). Jeff Nelson served as Sports Information Director at Holy
Cross from 1987 to 1993. He currently serves as the Assistant Athletic Director of Communications at Penn State
University (http://www.cosida.com/news/2010/6/3/0603105905_7745.aspx). In a 1987 newspaper article from the
Billings (MT) Gazette, Paul Daugherty noted that Burke was “a cocky and tireless promoter who could sell sand in
the Sahara” (ACHC, 18.10A).
31
Holy Cross offensive coordinator Tom Rossley went on to coach the Southern Methodist University Football
Team from 1991 to 1996 (http://www.aggieathletics.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/rossley_tom00.html).

16

that, at that time, Father Brooks, as the leader of the school, Ron Perry, who was the epitome of a
man with integrity and the experience of being in college athletics and playing at a very high
level, was the type of guys that could do it. And Mark Duffner as head coach; they could be
above the fray and they could be above it because they are going to recruit the right guys and
they are going to manage that team and they are going to manage how we present ourselves, to
the community and to the nation. So, I always felt that we could have been above it.
But when you see stories like that, you can see how bad things can get and how the wrong
element can infiltrate and worm its way into college athletics and college programs. Do I think
it’s across the board? It’s not everywhere. Is it prevalent? It seems like it is. It’s getting pretty
bad. At the highest level, you know, they mine as well pay them. [Yeah. Right.] You mine as
well pay them at this point ‘cause they are not truly—in many cases; I don’t want to completely
blanket every I-A player—but in some of the sports at some of the schools, you know, you’d be
hard pressed to find one guy who’s really a true student-athlete.
JT: Do you think Father Brooks made the right decision and saying by 1989 we’re not
going to go with athletic scholarships in football anymore?
GL: Yeah, no I don’t. I…he and I disagree on this point. I respectfully disagree. I think that we
could have kept scholarships. There’s a whole dynamic of cost and need-based and everything
and it’s very complicated based on how much a school spends for scholarships versus how much
they spend for full grant-in-aid type programs. So…and it’s all nebulous. The numbers are
all…it’s kind of George Bush math a lot of times. Every…nobody’s numbers are going to match
up straight. They’re going to be close in some cases, but there’s a lot of “agree to disagree” as to
what the best approach is.
And I just don’t think that eliminating scholarships was the answer, nor do I think that
continuing down that path is the way to go at this point. But he made the decision, you know,
and some people will…you know, when you talk about scholarships, the people of Worcester
always want to talk about the Big East and basketball [Yeah.].33
That’s a whole separate subject,
but that’s a whole another one. But, you know…but one of the things you can’t say about Father
Brooks is that he’s disengaged. [Yeah.] He was engaged. And any man and leader is going to
have to make a decision and live with it and he stands behind his decision and you’ve got
to…you can’t…you’ve got to respect that.
JT: Right. And he…I came across an article, he talked very highly of you. At one point,
[he] said the public relations you brought to Holy Cross was something that money could
never buy. 34
So, obviously, [he] very highly regards you, as most everyone does. But do
you believe that, you know, in the context of the eighties of what was going on at BC, do

33
Kuzniewski, S.J., 470.
34
John Gearan, “Lockbaum’s Glory Trail,” Worcester Telegram, December 8, 1987. ACHC.

17

you think that he was afraid that there might be a “Doug Flutie effect” at Holy Cross?35
You know, this big time program that everyone is going to latch onto and say “well, we
could be something bigger, better and, then, expand.” You know maybe make the college
landscape a lot different at Holy Cross today.
GL: Well, I think that it’s hard to be a “tweener” school in a lot of these sports. And what ends
up happening is it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. You kind of hold yourself down to a certain level
and it just gets worse, it makes it very difficult. And I think to say that…I don’t know, to be
fearful of getting too big? I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe that’s the answer is getting too big, or
getting bigger and just managing it extremely thoughtfully and extremely close. I don’t know. I
think that might be the answer.
But we’ve got a lot of sports up there that cost a lot of money, and a lot of non-revenue
generating sports and, truth be told, every I-AA sport is non-revenue. [Right.] Nothing’s positive,
generating money in a positive way. So, you know, maybe, you know, really embracing some
sports and…or just promoting all the sports and just committing more of the money toward, and
the resources toward that. I don’t know; I’d have to look at the budgets.
But, you know, there are a lot of different theories out there of how to handle it, but, you know,
it’s very difficult when you’re losing money. You know, he’s a CEO of a major, at that time, of a
campus and you have a board of directors who help set your path and set your vision of what you
want to become as a school, or what you want to be as a school I should say. And he’s got to
answer. And the buck stops there. [Right.] He’s got to make the decision. I would have liked to
see us get bigger.
JT: Right, absolutely. And one of the victims of that was the BC rivalry. ’86, he called it off.
You ended up replacing them with Villanova at the end of the season, but when I was
looking through some of the comments of people who…non-alumni people on campus were
like “yeah, we couldn’t compete with them anymore.” Father Brooks had said that
scheduling was an issue in terms of classes. But I came across, you know, Tom Kelleher,
“Big Red,” was a huge proponent of “we want to continue the BC series.”36
Now, do you
feel…what were your thoughts at the time, of losing BC on the schedule? I realize you were
going to play Villanova which is…it’s a I-AA school, but BC was always that…that rivalry
was a ninety year old rivalry.

35
Doug Flutie was a quarterback for Boston College from 1981 to 1984, winning the Heisman Trophy in 1984; his
last regular season game was a win at Fitton Field in 1984. The Flutie Effect is the name given to the phenomenon
of an increase in applications to an institution of higher learning following great athletic success (i.e. Flutie’s “Hail
Mary” pass to beat the University of Miami on November23, 1984). This phenomenon, which I believe that Father
Brooks feared could happen at Holy Cross if the athletics program expanded too much, is explained in “Flutie
effect,” The Economist, January 3, 2007, accessed May, 2011,
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/01/flutie_effect.
36
Ian Thomsen, “HC: little solace at the top,” Boston Globe, October 23, 1987, ACHC, 18.10A.

18

GL: Yeah. I think that…we have to be careful of, again, Father Brooks is making a forty
thousand feet decision on what’s best for the school looking toward to future, as opposed to us
saying, hey, we’ve got a good team coming back; we want to go and strap it up against B.C..
And it’s a great rivalry, it’s a great tradition. That game means a lot, and it did. It meant a lot to
our program to go play a big game, a big time game at the end of the season.
It was becoming less and less appealing for them, however, because as they became more
successful, they got into a no-win situation. They win, they were supposed to win. If they lose,
they look like chumps right before bowl time. So, it became a very difficult situation, and I think
the game got a little chippy toward the end. You know, things got a little difficult, and we were
having a tough time, even with the exceptional guys we had in ’86. We were having a tough time
matching up. But, you know, do I miss the game? I thought it was great. But, hey, we play some
of the top teams in I-AA now and it’s very difficult. Playing UMass is difficult right now.
[Yeah.]
So, to say that we could compete against BC is going to be difficult. If we had scholarships and
we could build the program to a certain level, yeah, you can play one game against the Armys
and the B.C.s and then, of course, some of those other high-caliber I-AA teams, like the Colonial
Conference or whatever. But you can’t do it week in and week out.
JT: Yeah, absolutely. And going back to the ’87 season, you played…I guess it would be
deemed to say rivals now: Colgate, which, at the time, was being billed as a huge game.
And I believe Fitton Field was sold out. You played against Kenny Gamble, who ended up
winning the Peyton Award—which you probably should have won the Peyton Award, but
that’s a different topic.37
But, do feel like a new rivalry was created with Colgate and
Harvard? I mean, it’s always great beating Harvard. I was reading some comments on
some things where the Harvard players would, you know, would catcall you with “there’s
the Heisman Boy,” “the Golden Boy,” whatever.38
Do you feel like there was a new rivalry
created? Was it satisfying beating teams like Colgate and Harvard?
GL: Yeah, well I think that Holy Cross and Harvard have always had a really good rivalry, and
there was no love lost there. Not being from the area, I think it was more playful. I think
rivalries, those rivalries to me aren’t heated. They come out as being heated, but I think it’s
playful, I think it’s fun, you know. When a guy…as long as it’s not dirty, if somebody’s, you
know, you’re in a pile and somebody’s talking to you a little bit, it’s fun, you know. We had
many examples of that in our games, and I loved it, you know.

37
Kenny Gamble was an All-American running back for Colgate University from 1984 to 1988. He was the first-
ever winner of the Walter Payton Award in 1987, given to the best player in Division I-AA Football. He played for
the NFL’s Kansas City Chiefs for two seasons
(http://www.gocolgateraiders.com/hof.aspx?hof=121&path=&kiosk=).
38
ACHC 18.10A, Series 3, File 4, Box 33, Folder 12.

19

But, you know, Harvard…Colgate’s been a tough rivalry. Colgate’s a tough game. That was not
a game that my body looked forward to. I looked forward to it in my mind because it was fun to
play against a hard-nosed team and team we knew was going to be ready to rock, but it was not
fun from a physical standpoint ‘cause they came to play. And, you know, I took some shots
there. Up at their place, they knocked me out of the game for…I had six or seven stitches in my
lip ‘cause, you know, a guy took my head off in the end zone before the first half was over in one
game. But, fortunately, I was able to come back, but knocked me silly.
So, we had those games and…but anytime you lose a rival game with the tradition like a BC, you
feel it ‘cause it takes something, it sucks something out of the program and, you know, we talked
about tradition way back when at the beginning of this interview. And anytime you lose
traditional rivals, it takes something away from the program. [Right.] It’s hard to restore it. You
can’t just restore it.
JT: Can you think of any specific instances of trash talking, anything that stands out
specifically?
GL: Well, Colgate had a guy, they had a linebacker, [Greg] Manusky, who ended up playing
with the…he played in the pros, I think he played with the ‘Skins, and he was a special teams
guy and kind of a nut.39
But he was awesome, he was fun, but he was the type of kid who you let
him talk because I wasn’t going to talk back because I didn’t want to get him more fired up than
he already was. [Right.] His head was about to explode anyway; the kid was nuts.
But it was fun. That, to me, was part of the game because he wasn’t dirty, and that’s where
obviously I would draw the line. You know, a lot of guys, the B.C. guys really didn’t talk too
much from my standpoint. But, again, I didn’t…I definitely didn’t promote trash talking because
I never wanted to wake anybody up. I wanted, you know, I just wanted to slide along like a
stealth, go about my business, put some points on the board, make my catches, not get hit, you
know. Just try to avoid anything because I didn’t want them any more fired up to get me then
they already were.
JT: Absolutely. And as the season progressed, toward the end of the season, you know, this
buildup. You’re going to play Villanova on ESPN.40
Everybody dreams of being on ESPN.
But you got it exponentially more. You got an interview with Frank Deford of, I believe,
NBC at the time.41
I actually found it, I have it in my backpack, an interview you gave with
Seventeen Magazine back in November of 1987, and I thought that was hilarious [GL

39
Greg Manusky played linebacker for Colgate University from 1984 to 1987. He went on to play twelve years for
the NFL’s Washington Redskins, Minnesota Vikings and Kansas City Chiefs. He is currently the defensive
coordinator for the NFL’s San Diego Chargers
(http://www.gocolgateraiders.com/hof.aspx?hof=167&path=&kiosk=).
40
Bill Doyle, “ESPN is relying on Lockbaum to attract viewers,” Worcester Evening Gazette, November 19, 1987,
ACHC, 18.10A.
41
John Gearan, Worcester Telegram, November 10, 1987, ACHC, 18.10A

20

laughs.].42
And then there was, you know, all these media outlets looking to get, you know,
a sound clip or a sound bite or anything. How was it dealing with all that publicity? You
know, you’re from a small school and all of a sudden…you know, like I said, at the
beginning of the season I believe you had thirty-six interviews in the first week of summer
camp…43
GL: Yeah, well, Gregg Burke and Jeff Nelson did a great job of organizing my time, which was
key because they were very schedule oriented. So, for instance, whenever I interviewed
somebody, I didn’t show up and then they were setting up lights and things like that. Literally,
I’d go, it would all be set up and ready to go because we did the Today Show, we did this, that,
the other thing. We did…every station was coming in, so he was very cautious as to how much
and how…at what time he did the interviews and he was very aware of my academic schedule as
well. So he tried to bookend or make them right up against a class or after a class, so that was
very well organized. That was key. You know, my family, obviously, you know, was
interviewed a lot. There was just a lot of notoriety there, but as it approached the end of the
season, you know, fortunately, that last game was down at Villanova, so I had family there
[Right.] because that was very close to my hometown, so we had…they had some busloads of
people full up there, which was great.
But, one of the things that I really look back at, too, was that your friends keep you in check, you
know. True friends will let you know if you’re getting a little out of whack and off center and,
you know, I always tease that I chose the right group of friends in Jim Andreoli, Andy Martin,
and Jim Kelly amongst others, but those were guys that I considered my roommates because we
really spent a tremendous amount of time and basically shared dorm rooms for three years.44
But
they kept me in check. Plus, they were all over two hundred and fifty pounds so [Yeah!], you
know, physically, yeah, they were going to look out for me, but, also, they were my big brothers.
They were going to keep me in line and whack me if I got a little out of line. So, you know, I had
a tremendous amount of respect for them, and they all had great qualities.
Jim Andreoli was my roommate for four years and he had a great family upbringing, the
Andreolis whom I work with right now; Art, Class of ’58, tremendous father figure, great
influence on me on a local basis.45
That can only help. Andy Martin, great family, again, just a
level-headed kid from Michigan who brought something to the table that I didn’t know about.
His mother had passed when he was twelve, so he was brought up by his father, and he had a

42
Cathi Hanauer, “Heartbeat: Gordie Lockbaum,” Seventeen Magazine, November, 1987, ACHC, 18.10A.
43
Paul D. Boucher, “The big game: Kenny, Gordie and a league championship,” Holyoke Transcript-Telegram,
October 1, 1987, ACHC, 18.10A.
44
Jim Andreoli ’88 and Andy Martin ‘88 played offensive line for Holy Cross from 1984 to 1987; Jim Kelly ’88
played defensive end during those same years. Martin played linebacker for a year (1988) for the NFL’s New York
Giants (http://www.goholycross.com/sports/m-footbl/archive_files/pros.pdf).
45
Art Andreoli ’58 is the father of Jim ’88 and John ’82. He played basketball at Holy Cross from 1955 to 1958 and
was elected to the Holy Cross Varsity Club Hall of Fame in 2009
(http://www.goholycross.com/hallfame/Arthur_Andreoli).

21

great bond and relationship with his brothers and sisters. So, I saw that family and I saw in him
great qualities and that rubbed off on me. And then Jim Kelly from Natick—who played with
Darren Flutie at Natick—who was just a hard worker, electrical engineering/math major at Holy
Cross and WPI, just pounding it in and out, just diligent and persistent—and a really good
football player at the same time.46
I mean, I was surrounded by some guys that were just phenomenal, and having those guys in
your life on a daily basis is a blessing; that’s the type of stuff that keeps you in check. Now, I had
upbringing; I’m one of seven kids and I had two loving parents that gave me a great, you know,
track to run on when it came to morals and ethics and, you know, who I needed to be as a young
man. I strayed and wasn’t all that I could’ve been or should’ve been, but at least I had that
support from some adults and some close group of friends that would always be honest with me.
Because sometimes you see people that are whacked out and you say, “Who are his friends?”
And who their friends are is going to be a reflection of how quickly are, if at all, they can get
back on track. And, fortunately, my friends were the types that could kind of keep me, you know,
somewhat focused in the right direction.
JT: Yeah, absolutely. I can attest to that as well. But knowing that Villanova was your last
game, you had pretty much wrapped up the Colonial League Championship, I believe by
late September, early October. Father Brooks had presented the lantern trophy—I looked
for it, but I don’t know where it is today. How did you feel knowing that you weren’t going
to be in the playoffs? You knew that even before the season even began that you wouldn’t
have a chance to compete for the national championship—declared national champions by
the media, but you never got a chance to compete against these other schools, like an
Appalachian State, Georgia Southern, schools like that…
GL: Right. Well, you know, when I was a senior in high school, we went 11-0 and basically blew
everyone out and had that type of season. And I can always remember my coach who played in
the pros saying, you know, you can only play the hand that’s dealt to us, you know [Right.]. And
that always stuck in my head that you play the schedule that’s in front of you. You can’t wish
about this and wish about that and worry about this and worry about this because it’s not going to
change. It’s…we’ve got eleven opportunities, we knew we had eleven opportunities and, because
we weren’t going to the playoffs, we started counting down by the time we were sophomores.
You know, that group of guys—me, Andy, Jim, and a couple other guys—we’d get down to
thirty-two, thirty, twelve, you know, twenty something. All of a sudden, we’re in the teens, we’re
in the tens, eight, five, two, one. We’ve got one game left, you know. We valued and really took
a lot of pride going out and making the most of each and every opportunity we had because we
were counting them down for three years. We knew that we were running out of opportunities to
get on the football field, so we wanted to make the most of it.

46
Darren Flutie—the younger brother of Doug Flutie—played wide receiver for Boston College from 1984 to 1988.
(http://www.databasefootball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=FLUTIDAR01).

22

Now, that being said, do I think we should have gone to the playoffs? Yeah! I think we should
have gone to the playoffs. Did we want to go to the playoffs? Yeah! And not just because we had
a good season. I think we should’ve had the opportunity just based on the fact that we were all
good students, we were doing what we needed to do. Other sports go to the playoffs. Other sports
get to travel around. You know, we missed less school than probably anybody. You know, we
left on some Friday mornings here and there, but we weren’t baseball or basketball or some of
these other teams that missed a lot of school. So I don’t think it was the way to go. But it is what
it was, so we had to make the best of it, and I think we did.
JT: Right, yeah. Now, after the season, obviously the whole season, the Heisman comes up.
You had a chance to go to New York. Guys like Tim Brown…you know, I read an article
about Tim Brown and his thoughts on the Heisman, and Lou Holtz was promoting him.47
He was obviously promoted on TV almost every weekend; you get this one chance. And he
pretty much said that, you know, he’s dealing with that different kind of competition—
almost like this “Little Sisters of the Poor” discussion we had with Boise State and the Ohio
State president talking about that.48
What were your thoughts on the Heisman? I know
you’ve said in the past that would be kind of a team award because of what they did to help
you promote your cause. But what was that like? I mean, I can only imagine what that’s
like…
GL: Well, it was, it was somewhat…a dream because you grow up really engaged in sports,
playing. I was the type of kid that was enthralled with sports. By the time I was a young kid, I
wanted to go to Notre Dame and play football; that was what I wanted to do. And I said to my
father, “I’m going to Notre Dame.” I’m about six or seven, eight years old and he says, “What
are you going to study?” And I said, “No, I’m going to Notre Dame. I’m going to go play
football!” So, I had no concept of going to school. I wanted to go play sports.
Now, I did well in school because I wanted to…that was part of the equation that my father said,
hey, you’ve got to concentrate on academics of you want to go play sports. But, that being said,
from a young age I was enthralled with it. I just wanted to play sports. I wanted to play at a high
level. I wanted to be the best I could. I wanted to score, I wanted to play, I wanted to hit. I
wanted to just be involved. And, fortunately, I had opportunities all along the way to build that.
So when the Heisman came along, it was like, you’ve got to be kidding me. You know, when it
first came up, it was like “give me a break” type of a thing. But we were doing such crazy stuff
out on the field and coaches were hitting on all cylinders with the play calling, and Tom Rossley
had put in this new offense and we were all just “I got it! I got it!” And a lot of the guys got it,
and Wiley got it, he figured it out. And were just…we were tearing it up. So it was exciting. We
had a great defense that was making things happen on the other side of the ball. Special teams

47
Sally Jenkins, “Brown Knows Criticism Goes With Heisman,” Washington Post, December 4, 1987, C1.
48
Andrea Adelson, “Ohio St. prez disregards TCU, Boise St.,” ESPN.com, November 25, 2010, accessed May,
2011, http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5845736.

23

were doing some cool stuff, so it was just…it was awesome. So, now, when the Heisman
discussion comes up, it was like, wow, they really mean it, and then we’ve just got to keep this
momentum going.
And, again, back to Gregg Burke, you know, he know how…what he was doing. He was careful
not to let it get too kooky or too goofy. And there’s a lot of different promotions that people do
and we just stuck to our guns about, hey, we’re a small town time school. We’ve got, you know,
a team concept, some exciting things down on the field. Here’s a guy who’s going to promise to
go to class and he’s going to get it done down on the football field, and somebody that maybe
kids can look up to and, you know, people can aspire to to some degree.
So, it was a great opportunity. It was awesome. We get to go down to New York. We get to be
on some Today Show and some of this other stuff. As Mark Duffner said, you feel like the
Clampetts, you know, coming to New York City [JT laughs.], as we are the small town group,
and he had never been to New York I don’t even think. And when he tells the story, there we are,
you know, getting, you know, getting shuffled over to the Downtown Athletic Club in a limo,
you know. It was pretty cool. And to sit up there and be with those great athletes and to have
your name read and to be on TV…I mean, I didn’t own a suit at that point. I was…I had a sports’
jacket on. So, we were definitely out of place, but we were made to feel part of it. The people
there really embraced us. They treated us awesome at the Downtown Athletic Club because they
were excited for us, they were excited for what this could potentially mean for the award, to take
a step back, because that award over the years had had so many great two-way players that, you
know, it was great to talk about that, to dream about, you know, and be nostalgic, so to speak.
Because a lot of these old guys just love to talk nostalgia.
You know, we all grew up with our fathers telling us stories about this guy and that guy and, you
know, Lou Gehrig and some of these…Babe Ruth and everybody else. But, you know, you hear
these stories and glaze over. But they wanted it to happen right now, today, so, to get in there and
to part of it was definitely special and was something that, you know, I’ll never forget. That’s for
sure.
JT: Yeah, I’ve got a picture…I was doing my research and you were in the Detroit Free
Press and there’s you contrasted with a guy with a leather helmet and how you were such a
throwback, if we can be nostalgic all about that kind of stuff.49
But, at that time, do you
view yourself as a role model for people in Worcester? I know I saw a picture of you, you
know, you did SPUD. I don’t know if you did Big Brothers, Big Sisters or something like
that. But did you view yourself as a role model in the Worcester area or in the national
spotlight?

49
Dick Mayer, “Gordie Lockbaum: Throwback to the days of leather helmets and two-way players (illustration),”
Detroit Free Press, 1987, ACHC, 18.10A.

24

GL: Yeah, I did, because I think that, you know, they…more times in those days, there were a lot
of kids who went both ways and there were kids who played multi sports that grew up on the
sandlot. I think, you know, that’s something that I like to talk about now when I go out that we
need to promote athleticism and multi sports. You know, we’re getting so specialized. In the
Eighties, you know, there was all that, you know, talk that the pros were more specialized,
college football was becoming more specialized, and they were starting to creep down to the
high school level. I’m not a big proponent of that because a majority of these kids are not going
pro. [Right.] They’re not going pro. So, if they’re good enough, they’ll be found, don’t worry.
So, play multiple sports, play pickup ball in the, you know, gym, play pickup ball out on the
sandlot. You know, play on the diamond, play baseball, play whiffle ball, play this, play that, but
just get out and play because parents don’t want to be overseeing every game that goes on. It
doesn’t have to be a formal practice. It doesn’t have to be, you know, you don’t have to play
sixty baseball games in the summer. [Yeah.] Play your fourteen or sixteen games like, you know,
and then move on to something else. I think there’s just such a, you, just such an intensity to get
everybody prepared for the next level, but what’s the next level? Because, you know, a majority
of kids are not going to play in college. And they’re definitely not going to play in the pros.
[Right, absolutely.] So play three sports, enjoy it, be part of a team, be the best you can be.
So, did I feel like I was a role model? Yeah. Now, not “look at me” type of thing, but, yeah, if
this is going to make everybody rethink this a little bit and say, hey, let’s say, you know, realize
that people can be pretty diverse in their athleticism and let’s let ‘em do it and try some different
things. Let’s keep it on the forefront. Yeah, sure.
JT: You were lucky enough to get a chance…you were drafted by the Steelers.
Unfortunately, everything didn’t work out. I remember you were running third down
plays, I believe, and one of the guys you were with, Merril Hoge, who’s on ESPN; he’s got
those outrageous tie knots.50
But what was that like to be, you know, you’re
playing…pretty close to home, but not too close to home…you know, getting a chance to
play in the NFL, fulfilling your dream. But, eventually it didn’t work out…what was that
like?
GL: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. You know, number one, every time you stepped up…I remember
playing midget football and then saying…and then going to the high school games and seeing
how big and fast and strong they looked and saying “wow, I want to wear the maroon and gold
someday,” you know, and thinking “I don’t know, I don’t know if I can do it. They look so big.”
And then, boom, you make that transition, and then you follow, you build yourself up in that
role, and then going to college. What’s the appropriate level? Can I do it? Can I be good? Can I
start? You know, and then, boom, you make that happen, and then the pros comes about. I get to

50
Current ESPN analyst Merril Hoge was a running back for eight seasons with the NFL’s Pittsburgh Steelers
(1987-1993) and the Chicago Bears (1994) (http://www.merrilhoge.com/).

25

play in some all start games and then I get to get drafted and go try out with the Steelers and I’m
provided a great opportunity there.
The Steelers weren’t what they are now and the Steelers weren’t what they were in the seventies,
so the timing was almost perfect to make the Steelers. That would have been the most ideal
situation because they’re old school and with the Rooneys owning them, that type of attitude out
there in the Steel City.51
So it would have been perfect, but I just couldn’t…Merril Hoge was one
and there was another guy named Rodney Carter from Purdue who was a third down guy who
had been there for a couple of years and was a good special teams player.52
I just couldn’t get
over the top of him and…so, I played my preseason games, I got towards the end and then they
had to let me go. So I felt like I good opportunity there. I don’t look back with a lot of regret.
Would I have liked to play better? Yeah. Do I look back at it as a cool experience? Yeah,
because you had certain guys who you had to block, certain schemes where you had certain guys
who you had to tackle you, certain guys who knocked you silly, you know.
I got to run into some really neat guys; the Reggie Whites, the Wilber Marshalls and Charles
Manns of the world.53
And I got to block those guys on a chip block, or actually try and chip
block them and have them throw me on the ground. But, you know, go up for a ball and try and
make a catch and get tackled or, you know.
And then, after Pittsburgh lets me go, I get to go to Buffalo, you know, and get picked up as a
free agent there and actually get closer to making the team than I did even in Pittsburgh. They
moved me over to…well, they brought me in as a running back, and they had Thurman Thomas
and I’m thinking, wow, this would be great to team up with Thurman Thomas.54
I could be the
third down back and then, boom, they bring in Kenny Davis, and I’m thinking I’m in trouble
here.55
After one week of games and into spring and then through one week of games, you know,
they sit me down and say they’re going to make a decision. I’m scared I’m going home after one
week and then they say, well, we want to move you to defense.
So having that background of playing both ways gave me an opportunity with Buffalo. And so I
played the preseason at defensive back and free safety and, you know, it would have been an

51
Led by Art Rooney--who founded the team in 1933--the Rooney Family name has been synonymous with the
NFL’s Pittsburgh Steelers for over seventy-five years.
(http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.aspx?player_id=183).
52
Rodney Carter played running back for Purdue University and played three seasons with the NFL’s Pittsburgh
Steelers (1987-1989) (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CartRo00.htm?redir).
53
Reggie White played fifteen Hall of Fame seasons in the NFL with the Philadelphia Eagles (1985-1982), the
Green Bay Packers (1993-1998) and the Carolina Panthers (2000). Wilber Marshall played twelve seasons in the
NFL with the Chicago Bears (1984-1987), the Washington Redskins (1988-1992), the Houston Oilers (1993), the
Arizona Cardinals (1994) and the New York Jets (1995). Charles Mann played twelve seasons in the NFL with the
Washington Redskins (1983-1993) and the San Francisco 49ers (1994) (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/).
54
Thurman Thomas played thirteen Hall of Fame seasons in the NFL with the Buffalo Bills (1988-1999) and the
Miami Dolphins (2000) (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThomTh00.htm).
55
Kenny Davis played nine NFL seasons for the Green Bay Packers (1986-1988) and the Buffalo Bills (1989-1994)
(http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaviKe00.htm).

26

ideal situation to make that team because that’s the 1990s where they started their run of four
Super Bowls. The defensive back position…Mark Kelso was the free safety.56
He wasn’t an all-
pro, but he was a good pro…he wasn’t an all-pro. So, you know, you’re trying to find ways to
beat people out, and who can you beat out? There aren’t many guys that are pretty, you know,
slouches in the League. But I felt like, with his injuries that he had had that maybe this was a
chance, and it just wasn’t. The timing wasn’t there and that was kind of the end of it. I had some
tryouts with Indianapolis and Green Bay and Philadelphia and the Patriots and some other looks
here and there, but nothing else came to fruition after that point. So I played eight preseason
games in two years, so I feel like I got as close as you can get without strapping it up Week One,
which I was proud of, but, in some ways, a little disappointed about, too.
JT: Well, you’ve had a great career since, you know…you do insurance now. Got to do a
little broadcasting with Bob Fouracre [Mmmm.]; I know how interesting that can be.57
How did Holy Cross prepare you for the future? What is the value of the Holy Cross
education?
GL: Well, I think that being at a small school, I think that there’s a lot of value. I think that one
of the things that really stood out for me is the fact that, in classes, the number of students in
each class allowed you to be engaged with the subject matter at hand. It allowed you to get close
to professors and really have them pour into you more than just some information in a lecture
hall style. It was really a continuation of that high school model where you can really be, you
know, mentored by each teacher, so you really got to know a lot of different people up there on
the academic side.
Being at a small school socially, you got to know kids on a deeper level and in a way that I think
is lasting, in a way in which you can really be impactful to the people around you. For some, a
small school got too small by the time you’re a senior, and that’s to be expected. For me, it
didn’t. It was fine. It was not an issue. I didn’t run into that problem where I felt that it was kind
of a caged, in jail by the end of the four years. So I felt fine with that.
And being in an area where I think that being a Christian and having a spiritual influence is
something that is paramount. I mean, you know, we believe that Christ came to this earth, you
know, ‘cause God coming to this earth to, you know, to save us, to really atone for our sins. And
to have the Cross be in the name of Holy Cross is something that, you know, I’ll always hold
dear because I depend on that cross for my eternal salvation, and if I didn’t have that, then I’d be
in deep trouble.

56
Mark Kelso played NFL seasons for the Buffalo Bills (1986-1993) (http://www.pro-football-
reference.com/players/K/KelsMa21.htm).
57
Bob Fouracre has covered Holy Cross Football and Men’s and Women’s Basketball on the radio and on television
since 1970. Gordie Lockbaum has been his color man for football when he has found time, most recently during the
2010 season. He was elected to the Holy Cross Varsity Club Hall of Fame in 2007
(http://www.goholycross.com/hallfame/Robert_E._Fouracre).

27

So, I’m thankful that, you know, I was in an environment where it’s not frowned upon to have
faith and to believe in God and to seek to know God and for each of us that maybe it took a little
longer to really get the big picture to eventually come to Him and to thank Him in a way that’s
meaningful. Heck, this time is, you know, we’re coming upon Easter and you talk about the most
important time of the year for us as Christians, it’s incredible. So, I’m thankful to have that
experience behind me and the relationship with God, with Christ to look forward to.
JT: Who’s the most influential person at Holy Cross outside of football on you?
GL: Wow, that’s tough. You know, one of the guys, you know [JT interrupts with something
inaudible]…that’s a real tough one for me. Because you start naming people and it gets very
dangerous. But, I had, you know, Father [George L.] O’Brien I had a special affinity for and
obviously he’s fresh in my mind having passed away recently.58
You know, I just remember, you
know, having his blessing, you know, before games and having somebody that’s, you know,
looking over and really engaged with the program. And I can remember, you know, running
through across the end line and scoring, you know, scoring one time down against Brown and
kind of peeling off to the side, and there he is with his hands up and us meeting with a double
high five, and, you know, I had that picture somewhere. And it’s just something that I love
because it’s just like, you know, because here’s a guy who, you know, he’s wearing the collar,
but not at that moment. That moment he was a football fan and he was a part of our team and
part of our program, and that’s something that I remember very keenly.
But, you know, I remember people, you know, like Father [Anthony] K[uzniewski] and Father
[William] Reiser and, you know, many others that truly challenged you to think and to figure
out, you know, what you believe and who you are as a young man.59
And, you know, most of us
again—and I said it earlier—are so self-absorbed that what a huge challenge as a teacher or a
professor, a mentor, a leader looking over all these kids to try to get them to really engage their
education, and I didn’t at the level I’m certain I didn’t at the level I could have, and as I get older
I realize that more and more.
But I’m just so thankful for that experience. I loved it. I loved it from the day I got there to the
day I left. And I didn’t want it to end, I’ll be honest with you and not just…I knew my football
career was over, but the spring of my senior year I count as one of my best springs. It was just so
much fun to, you know, to prepare for the pros and to, you know, finish my classes off and to
have some, you know, time to myself where, you know, I wasn’t playing spring ball or doing
anything that was football…necessarily football related, although we were working out. It was

58
Father George L. O’Brien, S.J. ’54 served as Chaplain for the Football Team through the Lockbaum Era. He
passed away in February, 2011 (http://www.currentobituary.com/ShowObit.aspx?id=91013&member_id=12).
59
Father Anthony Kuzniewski, S.J. currently serves as the Athletic Chaplain for the Football Team, as well as a
Professor of History at Holy Cross and the Head Archivist for the New England Province of Jesuits. Father William
Reiser, S.J. is currently a Professor of Theology at the College (http://www.holycross.edu/jesuit/members).

28

just a great time of my life. But it’s always hard for me to pick somebody that, you know,
really…[JT laughs.]
JT: I know; I promise, only a couple more questions left. [No problem.] But, yeah, I can
totally agree with Father K, you know, being great, a great influential guy. I don’t want it
to end, even though I’m only a junior right now.
Getting back to football, what are your thoughts on the potential of the Patriot League
opting for the reinstatement of athletic scholarships, maybe within the next two to three
years?60
We see Fordham going to scholarships. We see Colgate maybe thinking that, oh,
maybe we might want to; they played a game against Syracuse last season. Fordham’s
going to start a I-A schedule pretty soon. Do you think this is good for the Patriot League?
What do you see as the direction of the Patriot League going forward, you know, in the
near future?
GL: Great question. I don’t…is it good for the Patriot League? No, it’s not good for the Patriot
League. The reason it’s not good for the Patriot League is that they’re not on the same page.
And, for any organization to really be solid, it needs to be unified in the way they walk, and the
Patriot League is not unified by any stretch [JT agrees] because you have all the different
dynamics of sport, you know, this sport, that sport, you know, basketball, softball and all the
different sports that are involved or not involved in the various conferences. So, that’s one area
that’s really a challenge.
But, just from a football standpoint, I think they’re dangerously low in the number of teams that
are in the conference. They’re not really unified, because some schools are saying, hey, we don’t
really care what you think, we’re going to go this route, and, you know, what’s the recourse? If
you kick us out, you’re going to lose your automatic bid to the playoffs and you’re going to
lose…you’re going to have a difficult time, you know, trying to schedule five, six non-
conference games if you have a small conference, you know, grouping. If you only have four,
five conference games, it’s going to be very difficult to close out your schedule or fill out your
schedule.
So, is it a good thing? No, it’s not a good thing, because they can’t, you know, generally agree on
how to go forward, and to table it, I think was probably, you know, a disappointment. I don’t
want to say it was a mistake, but from my perspective it was. If it gets tabled for a period of time
that means that some schools are just going to make a decision, you know, unilaterally to go in a
certain direction without the blessing of the conference, and what happens is going to be what
happens, you know.

60
The Patriot League has decided to table discussion on reinstating football scholarships for at least two more years.
Joe Drape, “Patriot League Puts Off Decision on Football Scholarships,” New York Times, December 15, 2010,
accessed May, 2011, http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/sports/ncaafootball/16patriot.html.

29

So, I think it’s a little disappointing in that respect. I think that if you just look at on the surface
of the schools academically, you know, good, good schools to be paired with, good schools to
be, you know, in relation with, but a little bit lack of uniformity in terms of the approach. And
maybe the goals, the direction. The vision. So, maybe there’s a need for a little bit of a stronger
presence from the standpoint of the league, the commissioner. [Right.] I don’t know.61
JT: So, with Coach [Tom] Gilmore, what do you see with the future of Holy Cross
Football?62
GL: Well, there’s…you prefaced it with “with Coach Gilmore.” I think that he’s doing extremely
well with what he’s got, you know, available to him, what’s made available to him. I think that,
you know, he’s…on the field, he’s a great football coach. He’s very solid. He’s very technically
sound. I think he’s very organized, very demanding. But he doesn’t require anything of anyone
that he’s not willing to do himself--Mark Duffner was that way, by the way. So, I think that
translates well on the football field.
Now you plug him into Holy Cross and, you know, the conference is in a little disarray. I
don’t…the school is in some ways struggling a little bit as to what gift or resources. We might be
behind the eight ball in some areas in regard to facilities and things of that nature and funds that
are available and number of slots and things given the need-based aid scenario. So, he’s doing a
great job.
Academically, it’s extremely difficult to get kids in now, so I think that’s a whole another hurdle
that he’s got to, you know, navigate through, and that’s without even saying…pointing fingers
and saying, well, you know, admissions has to do this or admissions should do that. Admissions,
it is what it is, so…and it’s difficult. I know that it’s difficult. So, I don’t know how, you know,
we stack up to others, but I hear that, you know, we have to work hard to get the people in that
are being recruited.
So, I think all those things considered, he’s doing an awesome job. And, now, if you pull him out
of the equation, getting somebody to come in to this environment I think is…you know, there’s
always going to be a young up-and-comer, but choosing the right one is, you know, is a little bit
of a crapshoot, you know. So, my hope is that he stays for a while [GL laughs, JT agrees]!
JT: Absolutely. Coach Gilmore is very demanding; I can say that from experience. But,
second to last question, when you look at, you know, an Owen Marecic of Stanford, he’s

61
A great discussion on athletics in the Patriot League and at Holy Cross: Clark V. Booth ’61, “The Place For
Athletics: A Forum,” Holy Cross Magazine, Winter 2008, accessed May, 2011,
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/publicaffairs/hcm/winter08/features/feature1.html.
62
Tom Gilmore is currently the Head Coach for the Holy Cross Football Team. He will be entering his eighth
season as Head Coach in 2011 (http://www.goholycross.com/sports/m-footbl/coaches/gilmore_tom00.html).

30

been compared to you, but, I mean, he didn’t, you know, go three different sides of the
ball.63
What do you think your legacy is in the college game and, also, at Holy Cross?
GL: [GL pauses.] Well, I think that, I think that the legacy for those that were around, you know,
in probably would be the fact that, you know, playing, you know, loving the game enough to
commit a lot of time and effort and passion towards being the best player that I can be. And then
being fortunate enough to be plugged into a role that was different and that was unique and that
hadn’t been done, you know, in twenty years. Hadn’t been done since Leroy Keyes had done it in
the late sixties. So, to do something at a level that was not only filling a role on both sides of the
ball, but doing it at a high level. And that’s something that I’m incredibly proud of and that’s
something that I’m probably most remembered for at that time. So, it was an exciting time, it was
a fulfilling time to be part of it. It was almost a blur, because like anything else it goes fast, and a
lot of the detail you start to forget over time. But I can say, collectively, it was just an awesome
experience to be a part of it [JT agrees.].
JT: Just to wrap it up, just a silly question: Why did you choose number seventeen as a
jersey number? Was it Jackie Mo?64
Or did you have a reason for it?
GL: I was number sixteen in high school [OK.] and that was my favorite number, and that was
not available. And when I came up, I came up as a defensive back, and a guy named Robby
Porter who was a really solid defensive back had graduated and he was trying to play in the pros;
I think he went to the Dallas Cowboys.65
And the defensive back coach said, “You’re going to
wear this number.” So, I was just basically given the number. So, whether Jackie did it, or Eddie
Raymond, who was the defensive backs coach at the time, I don’t know.
But that’s how I got stuck with the number, and thank God! It was a great number. It was an
awesome number. It was Bob Cousy who I think wore seventeen, right? [Right!] So, yeah, that
was, that was one thing we could be linked up. We live near one another now. He lives over near
my neighborhood. So…well, I live in his neighborhood I should say [JT laughs]. So, you
know…and I’ve met him a couple times and he’s an awesome guy. He’s the guy you should
have interviewed!

63
Owen Marecic was a two-way standout for Stanford University from 2007 to 2010 who drew comparisons in the
media to Lockbaum. He was selected in fourth round of the 2011 NFL Draft by the Cleveland Browns
(http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/football/other_nfl/view/20110506browns_high_on_old-
school_draft_pick_owen_marecic/srvc=home&position=recent).
64
John P. “Jackie Mo” Moriarty was a longtime trainer and equipment manager at Holy Cross, retiring in 2009. He
was elected to the Holy Cross Varsity Club Hall of Fame in 2004
(http://www.goholycross.com/hallfame/John_P._Moriarty).
65
Robby Porter ’84 played cornerback for Holy Cross from 1980 to 1983 and played two seasons in the NFL for the
Kansas City Chiefs (1984-1985) (http://www.goholycross.com/sports/m-footbl/archive_files/pros.pdf). According
to Pro-Football-Reference.com, Porter played only one season in the NFL for the New York Giants (1987)
(http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PortRo20.htm).

31

JT: [JT laughs.] He’s already been interviewed. I thought I’d interview the best possible
guy I could interview, so…
GL: I appreciate it! Thanks for your time.
JT: I appreciate it very much, Mr. Lockbaum. I really appreciate it!
[End of interview: 1:10:14]
There is a story from People Magazine that during Gordie Lockbaum’s junior season at
Holy Cross—on his way to Heisman and All-America accolades—he sent twenty-four thank you
notes to the twenty-four writers who wrote major features on him.66
Looking back on this
interview, I realized that I was able to learn much more about Gordie Lockbaum the person
rather than Gordie Lockbaum the football player. Lockbaum the player had four memorable
autumns, or approximately forty-four games at Holy Cross to establish himself as a premier
college football player, chronicled in a plethora of newspaper clippings and photographs stashed
away in the Archives of the College of the Holy Cross. Lockbaum the person deflected attention
from himself and, in public relations, was “modest to a fault.”67
He was a reflection of his
teammates and his head coaches, Rick Carter and Mark Duffner. He was—and still is—the
consummate professional.
In the wake of Coach Carter’s death, Lockbaum and his teammates wondered if it was
their performance on the field that drove him to suicide. Unbeknownst to them, Coach Carter
was a man dealing with internal as well as external pressures, believing that his time in the “big-
time” college football spotlight had come and gone. In the bigger scheme of things, Holy Cross
as an institution had a decision to make in the early 1980s. The decision to join the Colonial
League and the subsequent consequences (i.e. loss of scholarships, loss of B.C. on the schedule)

66
Friedman.
67
Ibid.

32

obviously weighed heavily on the entire community, but, as Lockbaum noted, Father Brooks’
decision was not one made without much deliberation.
In light of scandals across the college football spectrum in the 1970s and 1980s, Father
Brooks made a decision not based on athletics (which he valued dearly), but on the mission of
the College: “…I have no intention whatsoever of jeopardizing the well-earned academic
reputation Holy Cross now enjoys by adopting a ‘bread and circus’ attitude towards our sports
programs…”68
While Lockbaum respects the decision that Brooks made, he believes that the
College could have maintained athletic scholarships for football and ultimately compete with the
Armys and the B.C.s given the proper resources. But Lockbaum said that the College would have
had to become bigger, potentially sacrificing the intimacy of the campus and jeopardizing the
creation of an accurate Mission Statement.69
Moving forward, he believes that the football
program is in good hands with Head Coach Tom Gilmore, but the limits of financial resources
and the imbalance among member institutions within the Patriot League have created an
unsteady future. He is clearly “disappointed” with the direction the League has taken, but he
acknowledged that the time when Holy Cross Football competed at high national level is all but
gone.70
Lockbaum generously mentioned many of his former teammates and mentors at Holy
Cross throughout the interview, but the impact of his Christian faith on his life clearly stands as
his primary focus. A common theme among football players with Christian backgrounds is the

68
Kuzniewski, S.J., 471, footnoted as Statement at Fall Homecoming, [1983], ACHC, 12.25.
69
Ibid, 493-494. It should be noted that the College’s Mission Statement was not adopted until 1992--just a few
years after Holy Cross had joined the Patriot League and had dropped football scholarships.
70
Kuzniewski, S.J. cites analyst John Thelin’s list of the four major efforts to reform intercollegiate sports between
1920 and 1991 on pgs. 468-469 of Thy Honored Name, and Father Brooks’ efforts “to keep Holy Cross aligned with
these priorities;” Thelin cites varsity athletics as the ‘peculiar institution’ of American higher education.
Kuzniewski, S.J. footnotes Thelin, Games Colleges Play, 1-2, 197 on pg. 469 of Thy Honored Name.

33

emphasis on the three “F’s:” faith, family and football. This theme is not lost on Lockbaum,
mentioning God and Christ as the source for his inspiration, his ability and his blessings. He also
mentioned the deep impact that his closest friends at Holy Cross had had on him, a valued part of
his college experience right up there with the game of football. The mission of Holy Cross and
the Jesuit mantra of “men and women for others” are not lost on Lockbaum. He realized that his
athletic ability and it being put to good use were indeed blessings, but were temporary; he
consistently referred to the reality that “we can only play the hand we’ve been dealt.”
While Lockbaum was “modest to a fault,” the importance of his position as a role model
for the Worcester and national communities was very important him. When discussing the role
of the student-athlete in today’s game, Lockbaum admitted that student-athletes today focus too
much on specializing one athletic skill, prioritizing the “athlete” rather than the “student.” He
described the opportunity to take part in the Heisman Trophy process as “a dream come true,”
but he also described it as a great opportunity for young people to see that when you utilize all of
your abilities and do things “right” with hard work and determination, then good things would
happen.
At 5’11”, 195 pounds, Gordie Lockbaum was an unlikely candidate to captivate the
minds and hearts of America during the 1986 and 1987 seasons. Holy Cross Football was never
the same after he left Mount Saint James for the National Football League in the spring of 1988.
The scholarships were gone, Mark Duffner was gone and the draw of major college football was
all but gone, but the tradition and spirit that was Holy Cross Football lived on. While many
alumni bemoaned the loss of football scholarships and the move to Division I-AA, Lockbaum
and Crusader teams of the 1980s and 1990s played the game of football and they played it hard
despite the hand that they were dealt. Most graduated on time and have led successful and

34

satisfying careers. As I was leaving Lockbaum’s office in downtown Worcester, I noticed the
quiet charisma and determination in his eyes and his voice as he reminisced about the buildup to
the Heisman Trophy ceremony in New York City in December of 1987. “Honored” and
“blessed” to have the family and friends and the ability to play the game of football, Gordie
Lockbaum—the “60-Minute Man” of college football—embodied the true “student-athlete” in
his actions on and off the field.71
Today, he continues to live up to that reputation that captured
the minds and hearts of the American people as a father and businessman.
I hope this interview serves as a valuable research tool to future generations of Crusaders
and as an inspiration to work hard and embrace the tradition that is Holy Cross.

71
“60-Minute Man” attributed to Reilly.

Gordie Lockbaum transcript

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