‘Jm So when was the first time you realised you were using everyd

‘Jm: So when was the first time you realised you were using
everyday
P: First tiem I used every day, I’d met a girl, she was ten years
older than me, I was twenty, she was thirty
Jm: so that’s eight years ago was it?
P: yeah yeah, met her, what happened, she had had a previous
two year heroin addiction, and up to that period I had tried it
but I’d never smoked it everyday, but she had obviously, and
for six weeks, after meeting her we were smoking it everyday,
and I’d said to her I don’t understand how people get addicted
to this stuff, people must be weak, I mean I don’t understand
how they’re getting addicted to this stuff, and after six weeks,
what happened is I woke up and realised I’d lost all this weight,
I hadn’t been to the toilet for six weeks, and also, I really really
needed to go to the toilet, and I didn’t know what the feeling of
clucking was, if you see what I mean, what the sensations and
that felt like, and you know I can remember that very first day
vividly, /just feeling that pain and the want for heroin like, erm
it’s hard to explain what it feels like, erm it’s like a rushing on
your mind, you can’t stop thinking about it, I want it, I want it,
I want it, so obviously we had to go and score then, but that was
when I had my first real feeling of it washing over me, it was
actually making me feel better than normal, before previously I
was getting a good buzz off it, it was giving me a good buzz
like, but fromthat point on it would wash over me where I just
used to feel normal again, as in, whereas before, so then my
tolerance built up, then my use went up even more, I was
smoking like sixty pounds worth a day, and I was committing
crimes to like supply that,’
Jm: So you said there was this one day you’d woken up with a
habit, had you already realised you’d been using everyday by
this point?
P: yeah, yeah,
Jm: can you remember the first time you realised you were

using heroin every day?
P: yeah
Jm: can you remember where you were at this time?
P: lying in bed
Jm: and do you remember exactly what you thought when you
realised this?
P: I thought I gotta go and buy heroin, I gotta go and get some
heroin
Jm: you said there were other times you were using every day
P: I was using every day, and I thought it was addictive, I
thought it wasn’t physically addictive, I thought must have been
a mentally addictive drug, and then all of a sudden I had the
physical withdrawals, I realised that I was physically addicted
to it,
Jm: so you woke up and felt you needed to go and get some, did
you have any other thoughts about it? Like fuck I need to sort
myself out?
P: yeah, basically
Jm: and when you woke up with that runny nose, was it first of
all what’s wrong with me, or was it I know exactly what I need?
P: I knew what was wrong straight away. I just knew, I dunno
how, I just knew it would make me feel better, I just knew it
would like, I dunno why, it just did, it’s strange
Jm: About this time did you have any conversations with
people about this?
P: no, no
Jm: so obviously your girlfriend at the time realised?
P: she had a habit as well,
Jm: but she spotted it as soon as you did?
P: yeah,
Jm: and did you chat to her about it?
P: nah,
Jm: and were there any other people who noticed at this time?
P: no
Jm: when did any other people first find out?
P: erm, we’re talking about a year here,

Jm: oh, it took people about a year to find out. Why do you
think that is? Were you only really hanging out with your
girlfriend then?
P: I was living with her
Jm: so you didn’t really see other people?
P: no, not often,
Jm: so were there any other people not from the heroin scene
that you were seeing at that time? You weren’t in contact with
your mum or dad then?
P: I weren’t talking to my mum and dad at that time then
Jm: and when people not from the heroin crowd found out
about this what was their reaction?
P: shock more than anything, I think a lot of them thought I
wasn’t that stupid,
Jm: what sort of people was this? Old friends, or family?
P: old friends, yeah and a few family members, cos I told my
mum, shock more than anything, same as from people,
Jm: did they try and get you off it? What did they say?
P: well mum said just stop doing it, I said mum it don’t work
like that, you can’t just stop doin it, and my mum, I don’t think
she understands bout this still like, it’s not one of those drugs
you can just stop using, you need treatment for it, you know,
it’s a real physical addiction,
Jm: do you remember any conversation with old mates you had
about this?
P: yeah, they were just, what you doing that for? Your stupid
like, you’ve wasted yourself, you’ve gone from thirteen stone
down to ten, cos I was like a thirteen stone, powerfully built
bloke like and I’m ten stone soaking wet now, and they were all
shocked, like where’s all your weight gone, you look like a
fifteen year old boy again, and it was quite hurtful like to hear,
I think they were saying it in a way of like sort yourself out so
you can come back be part of our crowd again,
Jm: but they wouldn’t have you back?
P: no, they wouldn’t have trusted me in there houses and things
like that, because people don’t when they know you’re on

heroin, You know, cos in general they don’t trust you, they
think you’re gonna steal from them,
Jm: and from your school, do you know any other people who
ended up using heroin?
P: yeah loads, lots and lots, yeah, so many people, it’s
unbelievable,
Jm: the other people from you school was it people you’d
expect?
P:no, some of them I wouldn’t have expected, so of them I
would and some of them I wouldn’t
Jm: and are many of them your close mates from when you were
at school?
P: not so much close mates but people I knew, well enough like
to call em friends,
Jm: at this stage, you said you were about twenty one when your
mates found out, were you one of the first from your school?
P: nah, I think I was one of the first, I was one of the first
Jm: so when your mates said they wouldn’t trust you in their
house, was that from experience?
P: nah, its typical stereotyping,
Jm: so those friends hadn’t really been around heroin users they
were just
P: no, no
Jm: so now we’re on this bit when you were increasing your use
what were you doing for money around that time?
P: breaking into cars, shoplifting,
Jm: yeah, what would you get out of the cars?
P: stereo
Jm: how would you shift them?
P: sell em,
Jm: to people in the pub? Or would someone buy a whole loads
of them?
P: yeah, yeah, or there was a guy in a shop I could just take
stuff to, and he’d buy it like you know, I’d get all sorts out the
car, car stereo, sometimes people leave cameras, mobile phones,
money, clothes with money in, erm, all sorts, laptops, you

know, that kind of thing like you’d find in cars like,
Jm: at that time were you stealing just enough for your habit or
did you have spare cash at the time?
P: it was literally just enough for my habit and then my benefit
money went on keeping the house going,
Jm: and you said you were just hanging round with your misses
at the time?
P: at the time yeah, oh, other users. Other users used to call at
ours all the time, to use, and they’d sort us out like for using at
our house like,
Jm: what do you reckon they thought of you at the time?
P: associate. You haven’t got friends on heroin, just associates,
Jm: so you were just smoking at the time, were there people in
your house injecting?
P: no no no no, my girlfriend at the time was against it and she
wouldn’t have had it around the house. I didn’t inject it until I
was twenty three I think.
Jm: how would you score at the time? Would you have to go
somewhere
P: yeah, drive in to the big town
Jm: oh yeah, how much would you and the misses get at a time?
P: started off just one twenty pound bag, went up to two, then
three, then, four,
Jm: would you make the decision together to score or would it
be one of you?
P: we just did our normal thing, we’d get up in the morning,
we’d keep a bit for the morning, sort ourselves out, make
ourselves feel better, go straight into town you know I was on
the raise, I’d come back with like four car stereos, I’d have
made eighty pound, sixty or eighty pound
Jm: so you were paying for both of you then?
P: yeah, so I would have made sixty or eighty pound, and then
come back to the flat, er, house, and then we’d automatically
get up in the morning, smoke the bit that we kept for the
morning, sort ourselves out, drive into town, cos she use to
drive, and then we’d pickup, pick up three or four, take them

home, smoke them through the day, do that, and keep a little bit
for the morning, id go back out on the rob then in the night,
then it was the sort of vicious cycle like that,
Jm: always only went out at night?
P: yeah, yeah
Jm: and you said on the raise earlier? Does that mean the same
as on the rob?
P: yeah
Jm: I never heard that before, does it mean specifically cars or
anything?
P: no, no no, just out on the raise… raise cash,
Jm: and throughout the day when you were smoking it, would
you decide together when you do another few lines?
P: basically she was in charge of it all the time like, she’d burn
the foil, she’d put it on the foil, she’d have the first bit like, and
it would just go like, I’d go and have my bit, she’d have a bit
more, I’d have a bit more like, a bit more like, a bit more like,
Jm: and why was it do you reckon your use went up and up and
up?
P: just depression, wanting to smoke more, depressed because I
was on heroin and I didn’t know how to get off it, I dunno you
just use again to get rid of the problem form the day before like,
stressed about, you ain’t, it’ s just a horrible cycle it is, a really
horrible cycle
Jm: were you getting on with your misses during this point?
P: we were getting on, and then it just started going downhill
from then, the relationship like, it become more of a drug
relationship than anything else, we was just together for the
drugs more than anything else like,
Jm: did that thought occur to you at the time?
P: yeah, yeah, course, yeah,
Jm: so now we’re going to talk about this time right up here
when you were doing about four twenties a day. How did that
last?
P: about six months,
Jm: you said you were mainly doing cars at night, were you

doing any extra to afford this?
P: be out for longer, or like look in more cars than what I had
done previously,
Jm: did you do anything else, burglaries, shops?
P: nah, oh, I shoplifted like,
Jm: when you shoplifted, would that be like when you ran out in
the middle of the day?
P: we wouldn’t run out in the day, we wouldn’t run out in the
night, it was in the morning, we’d get up, keep a little bit from
the night before, and then we’d run out, and then, then I’d
already have stuff to sell, or I’d already have sold the stuff and
I’d have money to spend, that’s what your life just revolves
around that cycle,
Jm: was there anything different up here to when your heroin
use was increasing?
P: it was changing, yeah the group of people I was hanging out
with was changing, users, instead of the people I ended up with
as friends, people I’ve now lost as friends like, you know, I’ll
probably never be friends with them again like,
Jm: so now we’re talking about this time here, around 2005-6,
when you were doing about three bags a day. What was going
on around here?
P: this time I was living in the homeless centre, I just had users
all around me
Jm: and throughout this period here, were you still doing the
same things for money?
P: yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much, same things,
Jm: were you only paying for one person here or paying for
both?
P: yeah, no just paying for meself,
Jm: did you have spare money, what did you do with it?
P: erm, spend it on cannabis,
Jm: and you were smoking that most days then?
P: yeah
Jm: so every day you knew thirty quid was what you needed?
P: yeah yeah yeah, it’s kinda like that, yeah

Jm: and so at this time would it be out at night looking for cars?
P: either that or shoplifting in the day, or looking for cars in the
day, people leave sat navs in their cars, you know, things like
that so, not proud of what I done, but,
Jm: so at this time, were you floor space, or were you in a room
at the homeless centre here?
P: I started on the floor space, then I went into a room,
Jm: so when you were on the floor what time would you
normally wake up?
P: They get you up at half past six on the floor space,
Jm: do they ring a bell or is that when you end up waking up?
P: no, they call you up at eight ?O’ clock, they give you a cup
of coffee, a bit of toast, or a bowl of cereal, and then they ask
you to leave then at eight o clock,
Jm: you said you’d wake up at half six, would you normally
have a couple of lines then?
P: that’s the one thing I always did, did some for the morning
Jm: you’ve always been good at that?
P: yeah yeah, I’ve always made sure I’ve kept something back
Jm: and in the homeless centre could you use their toilets there
or would you have to go round the corner?
P: normally go in the toilets like, you’re not supposed to but,
Jm: when you smoke it the smell doesn’t stick around too long?
P: yeah, nah
Jm: would you share it with someone?
P: no,
Jm: would you wait for the coffee at eight o clock?
P: yeah, yeah yeah,
Jm: and so at eight when they kicked you out where would you
go?
P: just on the wonder, you know, just go for a wonder round
town centre like until quarter to nine when the day centre opens,
Jm: and would you normally find something to shoplift during
this time?
P: yeah, I’d be trying to find something to shoplift?
Jm: and would you quite often manage to get something, sell it,

and get some gear by quarter to nine?
P: yeah, yeah, a lot of the time yeah
Jm: and in town was it easy to sell something?
P: yeah
Jm: and when you were a shop lifter what would you normally
be getting?
P: erm, anything from deodorants, to toothpaste and toiletries
and toiletry wise, after shaves
Jm: where would you sell them?
P: in the pubs, aftershaves, expensive ones from boots and
Debenhams, places like that, erm, or from cars like I’d take a
stereo, or people leave cameras, phones, Ipods, all sorts of
things, so, Oakley sun glasses,
Jm: and you’d never go off on the rob together with people?
P: yeah, yeah ,yeah, now and again, that’s how I ended up
getting locked up, for the robbery, cos I was hanging around
with this older person, thought he was older and wiser, he was
trying to rob people and they was just like pushing him off and
get away from me,
Jm: was this in the street at night?
P: it was in the street at night and in the end I done it and in the
end we got caught and I got three and a half years,
Jm: so how did it happen?
P: Basically it was a knife point street robbery, I accept the
back off him,
Jm: so the person you were robbing tried to grab the knife off
you?
P: no no, he didn’t try to take the knife off of me, he just gave
me his phone and his wallet, and run off like, but I gave the
knife back to my co-defendant, and he dropped it in a shop, and
the shop owner saw it and called the police,
Jm: what they got your finger prints?
P: no, he picked it back up but they got our faces on camera, so
they knew it was us like,
Jm: do you remember how it came about you decided to go on
the rob with him?

P: I was just clucking so hard, I just felt horrible, I wanted it to
go away, I was being sick, I was, I was in a hell of a mess
Jm: and he said what, come with me?
P: yeah, he came up to me and said I’ll make some money wi th
you now, went shoplifting but we couldn’t shoplift anywhere,
we kept on getting chased out of shops and stuff like that, and
then I noticed that he was trying to rob people in the street and
stuff like that and I could see he was trying, and I could see
people just telling him to get away from them, and I just took
the knife off him and I said, just give it here I’ll do it,
Jm: do you know, did you have a reputation at that point?
P: yeah, yeah I think so yeah, you know, I had a bit of a
reputation because like, I’d have a scrap and look after myself,
and I think people would be a bit weary of myself because they
didn’t know if I was going to kick off or they weren’t sure I was
the mind of person they’d get on with, stuff like that so,
Jm: in terms of amount of gear, did you have a reputation for
doing a lot of gear or for being good at robbing?
P: I had a reputation for being a bit of a shoplifter, being a bit
of a shoplifter, because I always had something for sale, I was
always trying to sell something to someone like, so yeah a bit of
a reputation as a tea leaf like,
Jm: ok, we’re gonna fast forward now, this is when you were in
prison for a bit and then first came out here, what was it you
were in for here?
P: that was license recall, from this one back in 06
Jm: oh, I’m not that sure of all of the rules of prison, what
happened here?
P: well I had three and half years, half in custody and half in
the community,
Jm: oh, I see, and were you recalled for an offense
P: no for relapsing
Jm: for giving dirty piss tests?
P: no, I told them I’d been using,
Jm: did you want to go back to prison then?
P: yeah

Jm: what for?
P: to get clean
Jm: oh right, yeah, so what made you think you needed get
clean?
P: you know, I’d just had enough of having to go out on the
raise, just fed up of having to go out stealing, y’know, waking
up in the morning feeling rough and having to try and keep
some for the morning, it was just too much,
Jm: can you remember the day you went and turned yourself in?
P: er, yeah yeah yeah, just went in the police station, I left it til
late in the night, I was looking at, I’d missed a court date, so I
went and said to them look you know I’ve got a warrant for
nonappearance at court, can I hand myself in please, so they
checked the details on the computer, yeah, handed myself in,
went in court the next morning,
Jm: you were already clucking then?
P: yeah, got to the prison, where they remanded, cos they asked
my solicitor if they wanted a bail app, and erm, that was that,
and I ended up spending six months on the wing,
Jm: and when you came out six months later did they give you
something to maintain yourself on?
P: suboxone yeah, suboxone
Jm: did you admit to them that you’d been using inside?
P: yeah, no no no, it wasn’t that I’d been using inside, it was
called a retox program, as opposed to detox, but did you tell
them you’d probably use when you came out?
Jm: yeah, I wanted to either have a naltrexone implant, go on
naltrexone, but because I’ve had mental health issues they
didn’t want to give me naltrexone, because it suppresses your
serotonin levels, and cos I suffer with depression they said they
don’t wanna mess about with something like that, they reckon I
haven’t got enough serotonin as it is like, so they didn’t want it
to be suppressed any more, so they said the only other option
then is to put you on blockers, subutex or suboxone, so er, did
the suboxone,
P: ok, so can you remember your first day out when you came

out of jail, yeah, from my first sentence in 99,
Jm: this particular one, what time of the day did you come out?
P: first thing in the morning,
Jm: where did you go?
P: straight to the shop and bought a can of beer,
Jm: what were you doing with your days when you were staying
clean
P: erm, hangin around with my girlfiend who I’m with now
Jm: I see, did you meet her then?
P: yeah, yeah, she was on the dip at the time.
Jm: so had you met her before you handed yourself back in?
P: no,
Jm: so you met her straight after you came out?
P: yeah,
Jm: were you hanging around at her place all day?
P: no, we were coming into town to meet each other and just
spending all day in town wandering round and stuff like that
Jm: were you robbing then?
P: no, no no no no,
Jm: so just hanging around, was she using at the time?
P: nah
Jm: how long was it you spent your days like that with her?
P: erm, well, for about three weeks, and then I moved in with
her
Jm: oh right, yeah, was that because she, got a place from the
waiting list?
P: she already had a place when I met her,
Jm: so she already had her place and then you moved in with
her?
P: we wanted to take it slow. So it was three weeks, which
wasn’t the greatest amount of time but we , you know both, we
were in love with each other, so we said, bam yeah we moved in
with each other
Jm: were you looking for work at all at this point?
P: no no no, I wasn’t, oh I was on jobseekers allowance, and I
was attending this place called CSI, basically put you on a

computer which was hooked up to the internet but it’s only
three websites you can go on, jobsite, the government jobs, and
er the job centre database to help you look for jobs like, so
basically that’s all they do for you
Jm: were you properly looking for jobs then or just doing
enough to
P: yeah enough to keep them off my back like, cos I didn’t
really want to go into work at that point
Jm: and why wasn’t it you weren’t interested in work at that
point?
P: I was just trying to get myself sorted, and off the heroin
Jm: and you said you were smoking weed around this time?
P: yeah, I was smoking a lot of cannabis,
Jm: and that was the only other drugs you were taking?
P: yeah yeah, that was it
Jm: for you how does weed and heroin go together, cos some
people don’t like it?
P: ok, fine like, I mean if i’m withdrawing I can smoke a spliff
and feel ok, it doens’t take my withdrawal away, but it take the
edge of you know what I mean, it makes it that bit easier,
Jm: and if you’d just had a line of gear, would you ever feel
like a spliff then or not?
P: yeah, yeah yeah yeah, it brings the gear on, makes the gear
feel a bit stronger,
Jm: were you smoking weed or hash at that point
P: weed
Jm: ah ha, so you’d just got with would current misses, you
were on the suboxone, who else were you hanging around with
at this point?
P: just her
Jm: and as at this time you weren’t using heroin did you try to
get in contact with any family members or old friends?
P: no, oh yeah, I did try and get in contact with my mum, but
we ended up arguing on the phone, I ended up arguing with my
dad, I then lost contact with my dad, he’s even my real dad
actually he’s my stepdad, he’s my stepdad, he married my mum

when I was five, and he adopted me, and by law he’s my dad
like, my real ad, I’ve never met, but erm, yeah erm, I forgot
where I was, erm?
Jm: yeah, so I was asking if at this point you were trying to get
into contact with non-users
P: oh yeah, I tried, I tried,
Jm: so did you tell your mum and your step dad that you
weren’t using then?
P: yeah, yeah, yeah
Jm: what was their reaction to it?
P: they were like well done, keep it up and all that,
Jm: did you feel they were being nice and congratulating you or
what?
P: I think, I suppose I did yeah,
Jm: and did you get the feeling that they were genuinely
pleased?
P: yeah, yeah , yeah
Jm: did they believe it was for good?
P: yeah, yeah, but it hasn’t been
Jm: now to this bit, this relapse, now what, so when you were
relapsed was that when they first tried to cut you down from the
subutex?
P: no, it was erm, trying to think, now, cos this is a couple of
years ago, I can’t remember, I’ll be honest,
Jm: can you remember first going to score when you relapsed?
P: nah
Jm: or how it first came, was it behind your misses’s back or?
P: behind her back, yeah,
Jm: do you reckon you just found at old friend or?
P: no I think I went and found someone and I had money on me
and said can you score for me and I’ll sort you out, and it went
a bit like that,
Jm: if you been off the scene for a while and then need to score,
do you find someone you know or someone who just looks the
part?
P: er, no I find someone I know like, wouldn’t just go up to

anybody like, I just, I mean, me just asking you if you can get
me heroin and you saying yes puts you in the concern of
supplying that class A drug, so I wouldn’t just walk up to any
stranger in the street,
Jm: but I spose you wouldn’t trust him to come back with the
tenner,
P: no I wouldn’t trust em anyway no
Jm: do you remember how long it took you to get back into
having a daily habit?
P: within a week or two
Jm: and even when it was every day was it still behind her
back?
P(nods)
Jm: yeah, can you remember how it built up again to that?
P: yeah, er, yeah of course it was exactly the same as the first
time, just the same as the first time, I was only using a bag a
day then,
Jm: were you talking to anyone else at the time?
P: I was working,
Jm: what were you doing at the time?
P: canvassing
Jm: ah canvassing, that must have been the first day’s work
you’d done in a while, can you remember the first day there?
P: yeah, yeah yeah, yeah it was ok,
Jm: so knocking on doors, asking for charity money, how did
you find it?
P:ok, it was ok,
Jm: how did you get the job?
P: through the job centre
Jm: was it any scheme for former users or people that have
come out of jail?
P: no, it was nothing like that,
Jm: how much money was it pulling in?
P: not a great deal, it was commission only,
Jm: would you get a hundred quid a week from it?
P: oh, it was twenty five pound for every contract I got them to

sign,
Jm: how many would you normally get?
P: the most I did in one day was three
Jm: and in a normal week?
P: I haven’t got a clue
Jm: some days you could get none
P: some days I’d have none, some days I’d have just one, some
days two, the most was three , but they wanted four a day, you
needed four a day to keep with the criteria,
Jm: and they’d let go of you if you didn’t hit the target?
P: exactly cos we wasn’t meeting our criteria yeah
Jm: were you gutted when they let go of you?
P: yeah, yeah, I was a bit gutted but there you go,
Jm: did you try and find other work after that?
P: no,
Jm: what, had that put you off?
P: yeah a little bit, it did yeah, it knocked my confidence a little
bit yeah, because I was building it up to start with yeah, and
when I first started working there I was going for a nice bit of
trousers and shoes, with a shirt and a tie and a nice jacket that
went with them, and then eventually like I went out and bought
a suit, went to work in a suit and it made me feel a whole lot
better, like a business person, that was a grey suit and went and
bought first, then I bought myself a black suit, and then every
week I was like going and buying a pack of two ties, different
colour ties so I, I still got em all now
Jm: ok, around this time when you’d relapsed here, can you
remember how you’d feel when you went to score? Would it be
excitement, would it be annoyed with yourself?
P: it’s a bit of a euphoric feeling, it’s like arghh, I feel rough
it’s gonna go away soon, it’s always a euphoric feeling,
Jm: would you always go and score in the morning around this
time?
P: yeah, yeah
Jm: and were you smoking or injecting, when you’d relapsed,
when you were working

P: I think I started off smoking and then injecting
Jm: and you’d have one a day or you’d sometimes have more?
P: one yeah, no, one
Jm: and finally, so at the moment are you using a few times a
week,
P: yep,
Jm: so you used yesterday I suppose because you were getting
pins?
P: yeah,
Jm: what made you think yes, today I’m gonna use?
P: boredom I think, I’m waiting to be housed,
Jm: what type of place are they going to put you? A one bed?
P: no, a two bedroom, room for me and my son like,
Jm: ahh, wicked, so the three of you are going to be in there,
P: no, it’ll just be my place, there’s no point me moving my
misses in when we’ll just be grassed up for living together
Jm: oh right, is it harder to get a place for a couple?
P: we’d lose money we would, that’s the basis behind it, cos it’s
her flat I’d lose all my benefit and she would only get an extra
forty pound, so it’s too much
Jm: so you’d have your own place but that would be only for
yourself and your kid?
P: yeah, and her place would be her place for her and the baby,
my place would be my place and have the baby at the weekends.
Jm: ah, that’s quite nice isn’t it, do you know how long the
waiting list is?
P: no idea, no,
Jm: do you have any ambition to knock gear on the head overall
right now?
P: yeah, yeah, definitely,
Jm: have you got a timescale or a plan?
P: yeah, I’m on a nine month drr,
Jm: so are they cutting your
P: not yet they’re not, not yet but um, but my prescription
hasn’t moved over to drr yet so it’s all up in the air at the
moment,

Jm: and do you have a plan about how you’re going to avoid
gear when they cut your meth down?
P: not yet, but erm, the plan I set in motion is I’m gonna get
myself a nice set of decks, to play my music
Jm: what do you like to mix?
P: a bit of everything, either hardstyle or erm, drum n bass, and
so like I’m gonna spend, concentrate on getting a set of decks,
you erm, just getting myself together now though, at the end of
the day I’m gonna get a flat soon, so once I get that flat, I’m
gonna go into a hostel, I’m gonna start getting things together
in the hostel, ready to go into the flat, with my own tele and my
dvd player, and playstation and what have you, I’ll get all that
sorted now so once I got into the flat all I got to do then is
decorate the flat, and use the grant that they’ll give me to
furnish it, and then go from there like, y’know, but that’s what I
got planned at the moment like, and it’s just like would like to
keep my cupboards full food and keep my and keep my fridge
and freezer full of food, and then like keep my place nice then
for my boy to come over,
Jm: so here what level did you start on?
P: Just smoking, I was on crack, I was, first of all, quite bad,
and then obviously, you know, being in that lifestyle whatever
somebody will say ahh, have a line of this to come down from
the high of the crack cocaine, and it started just like that you
know, and then after a while then, your body becomes
physically addicted to it rather than psychologically addicted,
and so then obviously I would just buy a bag then, when I buy
crack I’d buy just a bag of heroin, just to go with it you know,
cos I thought, right yeah, that helps me, and then I was never
addicted just to heroin, never, it was always crack and then
heroin afterwards you know, and then the more that my crack
addiction increased, then the more and then the more the heroin
would, but I have never smoked heroin alone, but then
obviously one bag would lead to two bags, to three bags a day,

obviously my crack cocaine addiction increased, my heroin
addiction increased, that lasted, and I mean only ever, three
bags, til 09”
Jm: Ok so we’re going to go all the way back to when you first
started using, so when you first used, were you straight away
using every day or did it take you while to kind of build up to
using every day?
P: so obviously with the crack, I was using the crack for about
every single day for about a year before I started using heroin,
and then it started, it was gradual, then it would be something
like once in every two weeks, and then obviously once a week,
you know, and then it becomes daily,
Jm: yeah, and can you remember then the thought that occurred
to you when you realised you were using every day? Was there
a point when you thought about that?
P: yeah
Jm: do you remember what you thought?
P: I thought what the fuck am I doing, what have I become,
what happened,
Jm: and at that point when you realised that happened did you
try to think about not using?
P: yeah, I thought about it, but I just, you think you’re not
ready, you think I’ll sort it out tomorrow, I’ll sort it out
tomorrow, you know and then the next day then, it would be
like a cluck for the crack, but then I knew that if I had crack
then the heroin was going to follow, so it wasn’t that I was just
addicted to the crack cocaine, it was that, it was the physicality
of the heroin, so maybe I associated, cos I don’t think crack is
physical, it’s much more psychological addiction with crack
cocaine, whereas heroin maybe, in hindsight now I was addicted
to the heroin but would buy the crack first cos that was the
routine of
Jm: and did you talk to your partner about, did you have this
conversation with your partner?
P: yeah, of course definitely,
Jm: how did those chats go like?

P: we would just speak about, you know, this is not how we
wanna live, do you know what i mean, remember the days when
we were clean and you know, crying, upset, disgusted with what
we’d done to each other, blaming each other, you know and
obviously like waking up in the morning and just saying fucking
come on, get up like, you know what I mean, we need to go out,
we need to make money, you know, arguments would start you
know and then it becomes volatile, the alcohol as well
Jm: how much do you think you were drinking then?
P: what, like in the beginning?
Jm: yeah
P: fuckin hell, wake up in the morning have a can, and then, just
to start the day like, do you know what I mean, and then we’d
go out like, looking for money, it was steady, you know, about
like, maybe ten cans a day
Jm: that sort of level yeah, so you had the chats with your
partner, did you talk to anyone else about it then?
P: I was too embarrassed, I was too embarrassed, obviously like
my family noticed like the change in me, like my appearance,
my hostility you know, the anger towards, but you hide it, but
you hide it so well, you know you do, and so basically we
isolated ourselves, from family, from friends, who are not using
you know, you try to appear normal you know,
Jm: so had your ex partner, had he been using heroin before you
started using it together then?
P: erm, I’m not sure, I’m not sure, I think probably he had tried
it,
Jm: but it wasn’t that he had a habit already and you picked it
up from him?
P: no, it was his two friends people who we went to school and
scored drugs off, they’re like smoking crack and then they were
doing it and we’d be like chilling
Jm: before you like started using were the friends that you and
your partner used to hang about with, were they all use heroin
and crack or were there some people that didn’t at all?
P: there were people that didn’t , but then we like introduced

other people into it as well, it’s bad
Jm: and did anyone, did your family ever say to you look
something’s going on
P: yeah, they knew, tried to, because it was a very violent
relationship as well you know, my parents used to, just wanted
my family, and my friends they wanted, people I’d been friends
with for years, who had never taken anything hard drugs at all
like, like Sonia what the fuck you doing, and then it was, it
became the case then that if you’re on that don’t bother coming
to my house, we got children here Sonia you can’t come here all
fucking drugged up, or drunk or high or erratic you know
Jm: you said about other people you were using with, did they
say anything about you don’t wanna be joining us on this
P: no
Jm: did they say anything about it?
P: no, it’s just they don’t care if we’re using, they don’t care,
all people were, especially people who were heavily using they
only care about their fix they don’t give a fuck and do you know
what I mean, they don’t care if you’re using too, it was an extra
person to, I don’t know, go out stealing with, or enjoy a buzz
with or whatever, you know, you become selfish you do
Jm: makes sense, and so here, it is in this part that you and your
partner lost your place?
P: erm, yeah it was, it was yeah
Jm: and so, talking about just the bit when you had a place then
what was your daily routine then, so you’d normally wake up in
the fairly bad way, and need to get yeah,
P: wake up in the morning we’d like, as soon as we’d wake like,
we’d save like a can or two, from the night before, cos we knew
like we’d like to have drink in the morning, so like we’d get
up, we’d have a little drink, and you know, like get ourselves
ready whatever, and then just go out then, just trying to raise
money to obviously
Jm: would you have a boot in the morning as well or not
normally?
P: sometimes, sometimes, yeah

Jm: you know you get some people who will religiously always
have some left for the morning or a little bit left, were you like
that?
P: no, because we knew that tomorrow was a new day, we’d
have people ready to buy, you know like we’d go out, like we’d
go to asda steal tvs computers, laptops do you know what I
mean but we had somebody who was ready to buy that so we
knew that all we had to do was just go out, do the one job, both
of us there two hundred quid you know, go and score some
crack, score some brown and then, that was it like
Jm: yeah. and so for this bit here like, money wise, if saying the
average money you were pulling in every day, obviously I guess
if you were working with your partner you’d have to divide that
by two, which one do you reckon it was? Still D? Yeah. And so
do you think you were good at doing thr raises, you and your
partner?
Up to 20:47
P: yeah
Jm: did you always go to the same places, did you go to a
variety of places?
P: cos at this point we still looked clean, do you know what I
mean, even at our heaviest use we, we’d steal nice clothes, they
still were clean do you know what I mean, clean looking and so
maybe we looked less suspectable, than people who have got
like dirty finger nails, also it was easy for us to go shop lifting,
you know we dress up you know, we looked like a lovely
partner going shopping, and whatever you know
Jm: just walk out with a trolley and no one says anything yeah.
And had you both been into crime when you were teenagers?
Did you have any prison sentences before this time?
P: he was, in and out of prison for years,
Jm: for?
P: violence, theft, burglaries things like that, but not me, I got
done for shop lifting when I was about twelve,
Jm: like most people have done yeah,
P: I wasn’t known to the Police, I wasn’t known to like social

services or anything like that, I had a good up bringing you
know what I mean,
Jm: When you were picking up together, would you just go
backwards and forwards for ten bags?
P: not just like, we’d like stay at drug dealers houses and things
like that do you know what I mean, and sometimes, even though
we had a flat, we’d like, we always stayed down for a couple of
days do you know what I mean but then we’d do our raise, do
our thing but then obviously we’d have to go home, clan up do
you know what I mean, we’d go home then with our a score,
maybe we’d go with a couple of days worth, do you know what
I mean, then we’d just lock ourselves in the fucking flat then,
do you know what I mean, you got your bits yeah
Jm: , so were you doing your raises in the valleys or Cardiff at
the time?
P: all about he was driving, so we’d go to like Cwmbran,
Blackwood, Swansea you know, you know, wherever like
Jm: were you organised, in the morning did you have a plan
exactly where you’d go?
P: yeah
Jm: did you go scouting out one day and then go on the rob the
next day? Do you remember how you decided to do it all?
P: it was exactly like that, he got done for conspiracy of, I can’t
remember what they called it, burglary, whatever, but we were
going from like asda stores to asda to store to asda store
because we knew like what tvs to get cos we knew like how the
alarm system was working, we knew this, we knew that, so even
if e didn’t go scouting out one day, we’d go back out the next
day, we did that sometimes, you know what I mean, he done
over pubs and restaurants and things like that you know, for all
the alcohol, big lumps of meat and all things like that, you
know
Jm: how long had you known him?
P: I’d known him since I was about ten, I’d known him a long
time,
Jm: through his teenage years he got quite highly skilled and

trained up?
P: yeah,
Jm: and before you two got together he went out with his mates
to do the same thing?
P: yeah
Jm: and when did you and him get together?
P: two thousand and five, june two thousand and five
Jm: and had you used crack before that?
P: yeah
Jm: uh huh, and this time around here, you were still
maintaining the same sorts of relationships with your family?
That you were talking and there was some tension?
P: yeah yeah yeah
Jm: and before you got with him did you have more straighter
friends?
P: definitely, like, if like, people who I bothered with, say you
know eight to ten years ago, my friends say if they see me now,
they would be, fukin hell Sonia, what has happened?
Jm: do they know what you’ve been up to for the past seven
years?
P: course they do, they do, but you know, I haven’t maintained
contact, with them because obviously, we’re embarrassed of the
lifestyle that I lead or the lifestyle that I have lived you know, I
am embarrassed and I’m ashamed,
Jm: but if you got, supposing you got your own place, and as
you’re not using much at the moment, would you give those
friends a call and try and get back those friendships going
again?
P: yeah, I think so maybe,
Jm: and why do you think your use here was suddenly going up
like that so quickly do you think?
P: cos, and I say this to everybody, I never felt addicted to
drugs, like he was, and I was addicted to him, I felt like he was
my drug you know, I chased him, and then he was chasing the
drug, I was chasing him, and I just went along with it because,
you know because the mentality of because I can’t beat you I’ll

join you like, you know, and I’d rather be with him while he’s
out scoring while he’s doing this than him be out doing it and
be sat waiting without him, yeah, you know what I mean, that’s
how it was,
Jm: can you remember the first time you woke up and felt a
cluck in the morning, can you remember that?
P: yeah, I thought fuck me this ain’t good, do you know what I
mean I was Ill, Ill shaking, cold
Jm: and did that lead you to think any more things about
yourself at the time?
P: I did feel worthless, you know especially, if I was a stupid
person or if I was, say for example some people, here anyway,
you know you meet people in this environment who tell you,
you know, about their life and some people have been in and out
of the care system, and they been like abused, and like they say
about the bad things that have happened to them, it’s kind of
understandable then, you know they been like using drugs since,
heroin, since they were about nine or something, ten, you
know, I think fukin hell, I’m grateful, I’m lucky that I’ve also
got the knowledge of normality, then, do you know what I
mean, I know what normal is, I know clean living, I know, and
that is what keeps me sane, that’s my goal right now, that’s my
ambition, I want to go back into employment I want to, you
know, I want my life back like, do you know what I mean,
Jm: yeah definitely, I think you’ve got the culture and the
social skills to get out of this
P: yeah, and if I didn’t, if I’d been in and out of the care system
all my life, who do you turn to, what if this is all you know
then, how the fuck do you get out of it you know,
Jm: yeah, I think that a lot with a lot of people I interview, I
think what can you actually do
P: where can you go, what can you do, how do you, if you don’t
know any different, then how do you educate these people, how
do you try to help them if that’s not what they know
Jm: it’s a difficult one, a difficult one, so this bit, this whole
period, were you doing the same type of raises, so did the two

of you get a place back
P: we were, erm, what happened was, even in the is increase
period we were raising say, I don’t know a hundred and fifty
pounds a day, or more actually, say two hundred pound a day,
and say it would be a fuckin quarter of cannabis some drinks
some fags that’d be it, maybe like a bag, or something, at the
end of the night you know, and then at this point, even though
our heroin use was only say three bags a day our crack use was
a lot higher so, do you know what I mean it was a lot higher,
plus obviously because the usage was a lot higher we’d have to
put more in petrol in the car we’d have to do you know what I
mean, that’s it so like, we were raising more money, so instead
of say just being content with just going to one Asda’s and
nicking a plasma TV we’d then drive around and say go to a
couple of different Asda’s or Tesco extra’s or whatever it may
be, do you know what i mean it, you know that it’s that easy,
it’s easy to become greedy, do you know what I mean,
Jm: and erm, what happened to your place when you lost it here,
P: erm, because he was violent, basically I just had like lots of
warnings, constantly you know, this can’t go on, this can’t go
on,
Jm: from, who was giving you the warnings?
P: erm, from the council, and in the end yeah, because he had a
lot of enemies you know, so people put my windows through,
and things like that and it was just, it was dreadful to be honest
with you, so we just walked away, we just left we did, we went
to stay with my mum for a week, for a little bit longer, he went
into a hostel, but I was still staying with my mum,
Jm: did you and your partner get a new place around this time
at all?
P: yeah what happened, was as our use was increasing, like I
said, I lost my flat and everything, and he went to a hostel for a
month or two I was like staying with my mum and then he got a
new flat then, so at its highest use, it’s stable use he, it was his
flat, do you know what I mean,
Jm: so did your parents like your partner then?

P: no, they hated him
Jm: and did anything else change from this to that, I mean the
crowd you were hanging around with?
P: it became a lot more unsavoury yeah, definitely lost a lot
more contact with straight people, you know normal living
people because, and especially from our violence, you know,
towards each other, our relationship was so erratic that people,
people don’t want you around, do you know what I mean, it’s , I
don’t want that around in my lifestyle do you know what I
mean, with people who live normal lives, and you know,
especially with the drug scene then, you get to know people who
are, all of a sudden before you know it boomph you’re just
surrounded, by that environment
Jm: and do you know why it is that your use of heroin stabalised
at that level at that three or four bag mark?
P: erm, I dunno, I just never felt the need, yeah I was conscious
of, conscious of not going too deep into that world, I think
maybe, I’m quite strong mined you know what I mean, and you
know, although I have got into drugs and the worst kind
probably do you know what I mean,
Jm: so now, what brought on, what got you on the script? Sorry,
did you get arrested throughout this time at all?
P: yeah, quite few times, for like shoplifting, erm possession of
drugs and er it was the possession of drugs that I was arrested
for that got me onto the DRR,
Jm: and did you just get slaps on the wrist or did you get any
community or prison sentences in this time
P: I got done for violence, once , which wasn’t a slap on the
wrist, I could have, it was like a crown court matter, I pleaded
guilty, I was looking at like three to four years imprisonment,
and then my barrister, my dad like paid quite a lot of money and
got like a really good barrister, and luckily I got out for, got off
for it was eighteen months probation, about two hundred hours
community service, alcohol counselling, erm anger
management, a fine, it was like everything they could possibly
give me rather than a custodial sentence, that was for the

violence, and then when they caught me then with possession, I
think it was just like one bag of heroin, and it was a quarter of
crack cocaine, that I had on me, then, when I went back to court
then, then my solicitor suggested a DRR, I asked or a DRR, I’d
had enough of that one, I wanted to get clean
Jm: do you mind telling me about the violent incident,
P: yeah
Jm: what happened with that?
P: ah, it was awful, I’d got into an argument with some girl,
she’d attacked me, and I was just completely out of my mind,
high and whatever , off crack, not sure if I’d had any heroin, but
I just bettered her with a stick, it was really bad it was, you
know, for the offense I think should have gone to prison, you
know I was very remorseful, still now it effects me, like that I
am actually capable of
Jm: probably unlucky that you hadn’t had some heroin at that
point, probably wouldn’t have done it
P: that’s probably why I acted so erratic you know,
Jm: were you an angry person before the crack or?
P: I think that because, I’ve had a lot of time to reflect on this, I
think that because of the violence in my relationship, I was
never a violent person, I wasn’t brought up with violence, I just
think because I’ve taken so many beatings off him, that when
somebody attacked me, I think that I just lost it you know,
Jm: and so when your solicitor suggested the DRR, what did
you think of it?
P: I was really grateful, I was really grateful
Jm: were you, sick of the lifestyle at that point?
P: sick of it
Jm: were you still with your partner then?
P: still with him then, yeah. But basically do you know what it
is, it’s strange even though I was on the DRR and he wasn’t, he
still got clean with me and it was just, I think we’d come to the
point, where we both, we just had enough I think, it was killing
us, it was killing our relationship, obviously we’d spoke about
it a lot yeah, what our lives have become, we’d end up selling

our possessions and things it was just,
Jm: were the raises getting less successful at this point as well?
P: I just couldn’t be bothered any more, I just couldn’t be
bothered to go out raising, you know what I mean, I was
exhausted with the lifestyle, I was exhausted with getting up
every day and doing that, do you know what I mean, the
reputation that comes with it, you know, people think that your
an untrustworthy person, and just it’s not good,
Jm: ah huh, and describe to me the when you got your
methadone yeah, I mean how long until you got your first bag?
Did it hold you the first dose they put you on the methadone?
P: cos I was on a high dosage, of valium as well, so it was like
I’d take the valium through the day, and then obviously, about
four o clock I would have the methadone, cos I really honestly
found that it sedated me, it helped me a lot you know, and
obviously and you still have the psychological urge because
that’s your routine of doing that so psychologically you feel lost
you feel the total change of lifestyle, for you and it’s and it
doesn’t just work straight away, you know what i mean so it’s
not like oh right have a sip of this and that means it’s gone, it
doesn’t work like that at all but they’re not half the time, and
you know we still got the odd little thing, but I got drug tested
three times a week, so I had to stay clean or i was gonna go to
prison, it worked as a deterrent for me so, it wasn’t just the
deterrent of going to prison it was also the desire to change as
well that was so immense for me that I knew I was gonna get
clean and I just knew it had come to that point I just knew
37:56
Jm: and what happened to you and our partners lifestyle then,
did he have a place than when you got on the script?
P: he did yeah
Jm: and so you’d wake up in the morning and what would you
do then?
P: he would still, he was still even though his, like I was
cleaner than him, I would beg him you know, he would still go
out and he’d still raise things

Jm: would you go out with him ten?
P: no, no. My lifestyle changed at that’s got a lot to do with
why we split up, because even though I say yeah he got clean
with me I don’t believe really he did, I think he was just sneaky
about it, you know what I mean, he’d still go out and raise and
he’d just go out with the boys, but at this point then when I was
on methadone you know I started speaking to my mum a lot
more you know so in the days I’d go down and sit with my
mum, you know my sister or whatever, and trying to start to,
you know, build things, you know I was sometimes there I
wouldn’t see him for days, you know
Jm: when he was away would you stay at your mums, stay at
his?
P: I’d stay at the flat yeah
Jm: what did you do with your time? Watching tv?
P: watch the tv, do crosswords, write some poetry, painting art
canvasses, a bit of decorating, just keeping myself busy like,
Jm: were you satisfied with life then?
P: that still wasn’t the life I wanted, I wasn’t happy with the
way lifestyle was, I wasn’t happy with my relationship, I wasn’t
happy with, I still wasn’t happy,
Jm: how long do you think that stage of your life lasted for?
P: I dunno about nine months,
Jm: and then after that nine months?
P: after that nine months, oh I dunno, used again
Jm: yeah
P: then, yeah
Jm: can you remember how it happened that you used again?
P:yeah yeah yeah, I was arguing with my partner, I was saying
what you been up to, what you been doing, soI went out with
him, went to a crack house, smoked crack and then yeah,
smoked brown, you’re going to ask how I feel about myself
then, I was fucking disgusted, disgusted, I wanted to go home, I
just wanna go home,
Jm: were you still on the script then?
P: still on meth, I was on methadone for twelve months, after

that they decreased it,
Jm: after that time when you went to the crack house, did you
get back into the rat race for a while then?
P: no I didn’t I was disgusted, I was disgusted,
Jm: so did you just go back to where your lifestyle had been?
P: yeah, yeah
Jm: so did they reduce you all the way to zero?
P: yeah, very quickly as well,
Jm: how did that go? Was it painful?
P: it was but, it was, quite physically, but babe I was just so
mentally strong, wanted it so much that, even though like it’s
like you’re going through a cluck you’ve, do you know what it’s
gonna sound stupid but it wasn’t hard, it wasn’t hard, it wasn’t
because well, they say you swap you know, I did really, I was
taking a lot of valium, diazies you know, and so maybe I didn’t
find getting off methadone as hard as getting completely clean,
because as you’re probably aware now studying drug addictions
and things a lot of people do substitute one thing for another,
but I found valium a lot better for me than the methadone or
heroin or crack and so I was, I didn’t feel ashamed you know,
that I was using diazepam like to get me through the day, or to
help me feel, you know, relaxed, you know, and obviously on
the DRR as well, I had a lot of acupuncture and things as well,
Jm: was there other therapies with it as well?
P: there were things available and I found that helped a lot as
well you know, like on the bus journey on the way home like, I
just felt so relaxed, I’m lucky that I’m quite intelligent, you
know I have got other interests in life, I think I just got caught
into it you know, everybody’s different,
Jm: and so after, was it the meth got stopped here, and then
after, at what point did you and your ex partner split up?
P: we split up about July, August, September, 2010
Jm: so it’s coming up to two years now, so did your lifestyle
change then? Did you move back to your mums then when you
split up with him?
P: since then I’ve been back and forth, friends, hostels, back

and forth for the last two years,
Jm: and so how have you been getting on with your mum since
then?
P:it’s still erratic, sporadically getting along with her, now and
then we’ll have an argument, I dunno, I just, like I left home
when I was like fifteen, so it’s always been back and forth,
Jm: where did you go when you were fifteen?
P: I moved in with a friend I did,
Jm: was that because you were falling out with your mum then?
P: yeah
Jm: and erm, do you have sisters and brothers?
P: two sisters?
Jm: how have you got on with them throughout this whole
thing?
P: erm, my younger sister, she’s only twelve, so you know,
she’s just a little’un, my other sister, she’s twenty three, and I
get on with her yeah, I get on with her, I never used to once I
was going through all this, she just thinks I was a fucking waste
of space, but as she’s got older, we speak more and there’s a lot
more understanding, now, you know, because, she’s older, she’s
wiser and she’s aware that you know,
Jm: and when you said that you’re drinking quite a bit at the
moment,
P: I drink every day now
Jm: were you drinking through when you said you were on the
methadone script?
P: yeah, but not much,
Jm: and when was it your drinking picked up do you reckon?
P: probably when I think I split up with my ex, yeah
Jm: and can I ask what you’re doing for money at the moment?
P: I’m on benefits?
Jm: and that more or less manages to tie you through?
P: yeah, well, yeah, it has to, doesn’t it
Jm: how much do you get on the benefits?
P: not a lot, 74 pounds a week,
Jm: so since you been on the script it’s definitely been A,

nought to fifty?
P: yeah
Jm: and have you got a group of friends here? Or a bit of a lone
ranger?
P: ah, you know, I just bounce from person to person, I think
because I’m bubbly and outgoing and I want to speak to
everybody you know, you know what I mean,
Jm: do you have a partner at the moment?
P: no
Jm: and deliberately steering clear of that?
P: yes
Jm: and so said at the moment you’ve got really good aims, get
a place etc, do you have a plan for that?
P: yeah I have actually, I’m going to see a women’s aid worker
later, like even though it’s been a while since, I had the violent
relationship, I was speaking to someone yesterday who does
voluntary work for womens aid, and obviously because if the
situation I’m in now where I’m homeless, and things and I still
get quite upset about like events and things I’m going through,
she’s like Sonia, they can definitely help you, I spoke to a
woman on the phone now and I gotta go to, see her this
afternoon, they think they can help me with some kind of
accommodation, even if it’s just a hostel or something,
Jm: an all female hostel or something?
P: yeah, so then I’ll, and she was saying that, there’s lots of
support networks, and everything that you need really, you
know what I mean so hopefully, we’ll see her this afternoon,
they can sort something out, then at least I’m on the ladder, to
get my own accommodation, like and they will obviously help
me with alcohol and counselling about deep rooted things, I
think the violence has affected me, a hell of a lot, my
confidence, my inability to build sort of relationships with men
you, I mean I can be friend with men, but not, you know, it isn’t
normal how, it isn’t normal like,
Jm: so one other thing I forgot to ask was, did you work before
2005?

P: yeah
Jm: what did you do?
P:well I’ve always done little bar jobs and the sales I used to do
sales yeah, I’ve worked in between all this as well, funny
enough like, strange enough
Jm: and what jobs was it mainly through here?
P: I’ve always done sales jobs, call centre, that sort of thing,
Jm: When was the first time you were using every day
P: Well it was probably about, I’d say about 8 years ago now
Jm: ok, 8 years
P: yeah, when I started using it every day yeah,
Jm: So eight years ago, so we’re 2012, so 8 years ago we’re at
would be about 2004
P: yeah
Jm: and what’s the most amount of bags you reckon you’ve
been using a day
P: well, when I was at my worst I was doing about, probably
about a teenth a day, which is probably about 8 bags a day
Jm: so when you first realised you were using every day, you
said it was 2004, what time in the year was it, you reckon
winter, spring,
P: no is was summer time it was cos I was in prison and I start
using in prison and erm I was, I was in denial a bit, and er
didn’t think I had a habit, even though I was using most days, I
always thought I was in control of it, and I er came out of
prison and before i knew it I had a habit, and then I started and
I wasn’t using a lot I was just using probably about 2 bags a day
then
Jm: ok so we start off about here. And it was still the summer
when you came out of prison?
P: it was er beginning of winter when I came out of prison, so
yeah, in the six months I was in prison I would say er, I went
from using a bag a day to 2 bags a day and when I came out of
prison for about a year I’d say I stayed about the same doin
about 2 bags a day

Jm: so that was up until about winter of 2005, and then what do
you reckon happens after there
P: and then the quality of the gear came in and it wasn’t as
good, and erm I was erm having to use more and er I was going
through a stressful time and er I was homeless, my life was erm
like in disarray, and er, you know, I started er, using a lot more
then, I started stealin and you know doin everything I could to
fund my habit,
Jm: ok, so it was about 2 bags a day about winter 2005, what
happens next,
P: I reckon I doubles the amount I was using,
Jm: and so how sharp should that line be then d’you reckon>?
P: erm, very quickly,
Jm: so when you were up around 4 bags, how long to you think
you hung around at this level,
P: I was just getting in a relationship with somebody then, and I
erm, I think I tried to minimize, and I think I stayed like that for
a number of years, about 3-4 years,
Jm: so you think you were at this 4 bag level until about 2009?
P: yeah, yeah
Jm: and so when you do you reckon that changed again,
P: I erm, I split up with my partner, became homeless again, I
had, erm my life wasn’t in order, and er, my habit escalated
again then, and it went from using 4 bags a day to probably 6
bags a day….
Jm: and so that’s when you’re hitting about 2011,
P: yeah, I was doing a lot of gear then, and I wasn’t on a
program, and I wasn’t getting you know, any other help, and I
didn’t really know how to get help and tackle my problems,
2011, you know I er, I started to realise that er that I wanted to
make changes to my life, that I was fed up of bein homeless,
you know, living in disorder, I decided it was m y time, a
couple of my friends had got themselves on a methadone
program, and I erm decied that I was gonna try that and you
know tackle that, and I’d say probably in June 2011, I erm,
brought my bit down, even though I was waiting to go on the

program, I brought my habit down from 8 bags a day to about 4
bags a day,
Jm: and you did that quite quickly?
P: I did, yeah I did yeah, the quality of the gear again yeah,
quite good,
Jm: that helps?
P: yeah, that helped, and at the time I was travelling to get my
gear, wasn’t getting it from , so the quality of gear was better,
and I was er goin up to North wales to get my gear, and you
know I started using less, but I still really wasn’t saving any
money, cos I was catchin trains up and down and round and
back, and erm, travelling expenses was, er, expensive, I’d say
er, you know, beginning of 2012, I decided hat er, I’d had
enough, and I really wanted to er, sort myself out, get some
order back in my life,
Jm: and what do you reckon you are on now?
P: now I’m on 2 bags a day,
Jm: can you remember when it was you got on the methadone.
P: erm, it’s only recently, I been on the methadone probably, 2,
2 and a half months,
Jm: has there ever been a time when you’ve gone right down to
zero?
P: nah, even when I’ve been in prison I’ve always used, isn’t
hard to get there
Jm: So can you remember the first time you realised you were
using heroin every day?
P: yeah I can, very vivid, erm I can remember I was a little bit
disappointed in myself, and a little bit scared, and I always
knew that er, I wasn’t gonna become a statistic, cos I’ve always
been a bit careful when I use drugs, I mean you know be a little
bit careful who I use drugs around, and er, and I wasn’t
injecting, so i had no worries of dieing or anything like that,
and I er you know had no major concerns other than not wanting
to become a junkie, and you know I wasn’t injecting so in my
eyes I sort of said to myself I’m not a junkie, I’m not injecting ,
I’m not flat out, so things could be worse, so i’m not a junkie,

just a druggy, I dunno where that, it made some kind of sense,
but it did
Jm: it does make sense,
P: that was when, er, everything started to go wrong for me, and
then er I was in and out of prison,
Jm: and so it was in prison that you first realised you were
using every day?
P: I was still in prison yeah, no I mean I’d just come out of
prison.
Jm: you’d just come out of prison?
P: yeah
Jm: so you noticed that you’d get a cluck in the morning when
you were out of prison?
P: yeah
Jm: can you remember what first occurred to you the first time
you
P: I thought I was ill, I thought, you know, at the back of my
mind I was thinking ‘you got a habit’, but I was in denial, and I
was saying to myself no you haven’t got a habit, I got flu or I
caught a bug, y’know and I was justifying it myself that way,
and for what I’d say, a yea, or maybe 2 years I was a little bit in
denial, knowing but not admitting it do myself, and you know
that was his part, this period, you know, for two years I was sort
of knowing I had a habit, but a little bit in denial, and y’know,
not fully admitting it to myself,
Jm: around this point do you remember having any
conversations about the fact you were using every day?
P: no, I was still telling everybody that I didn’t have a habit,
and I was er still denying it to every one, even to myself I was
lying to myself, I knew it in my head really, but yeah,
admitting it to myself was something else then, I mean if
anyone asks me friends or anybody, I’d say no, I’m not a
smackhead,
Jm: do you remember the time you admitted it to yourself that
you had a habit?
P: yeah, that was when my life started spiralling out of control,

I was finding it difficult to function and I was erm, to live and
erm, to find my way in life you know, and that’s when I, when I
sort of, how do I say it, I exceeded and said to myself I have got
a habit, and my life sort of, I just accepted it, and then my habit
got worse, then, because I sort of accepted it, you know and er
realised, that I did have a habit, it wasn’t a problem and I was
becoming an addict, and that’s when my life sort of went up to
there,
Jm: and erm who were you hanging out with at this time, was it
only other heroin users?
P: erm, other heroin users, and other crack users, and you know,
other offence committers, you know, all the riff raff of the
world,
Jm: is there anyone from out of that scene who you were in
contact with at that time?
P: no, I was hiding from everybody who wasn’t doing it, and I
was sort of and I thought like I didn’t belong among em, and i
sort of shied away from them if I saw them, people who I knew
who wasn’t using I’d hide from them, cos if they didn’t see me I
wouldn’t make myself known, so I was sort of like a shell at
that point,
Jm: can you remember when it was you tried to hide away from
people who wasn’t part of that scene?
P: it was when I realised I had a habit, yeah it was then, at the
beginning, and right the way up until it got a lot worse I was
like that,
Jm: and when you look back at this person who first got the
habit, what do you see that person as like?
P: a shell, I wasn’t living I was existing, I wasn’t happy I was
depressed, I didn’t have no organisation or nothing, or anything
in my life, or any stability, and I was sort of losing hope, and
struggling, and then I sort of stayed at that level for a number of
years, and I think it was probably about 3 or 4 years, and then
my habit, I sort of accepted that habit, and then my habit got a
bit worse then, everything was going wrong then again in my
life, you know I sort of increased again, and went up again,

Jm: so now we’re going to move on to this bit here, so you said
you had a girlfriend at the time, so what was life like at that
moment? Describe life at this time to me?
P: erm, it was good, but it wasn’t, I was er, I was hiding it from
her,
Jm: so was she not a user?
P: no, she smoked cannabis, and er, she dabbled occasionally,
and er she knew I used, but er, she didn’t know to what level I
was using, so all the tinme I was in a relationship with her I
was, it was like I was living a lie, because er I was er, hiding
from my family, hiding from everyone really, and er, you know
I was er, I was sort of in a shell I was, and er, finding it very
difficult to er, break out of it and I couldn’t talk to nobody
about it, had nobody to turn to, so like this period here, it was
very rocky it was, it had ups and downs, lots of ups and downs,
and er there was er, it wasn’t until I split up with her that, I
was devastated for her that, I was devastated at losing her,
losing my children, and erm I sort of er, it spiralled out of
control again, and it went even worse then,
Jm: and in this bit here what were you doing for money?
P: I was at the time I was, I was fiddling, I was, I was
labouring, erm, I was stealing,
Jm: what sort of thefts were you doing?
P: shoplifting, burglary,
Jm: take me through like a standard day, when you woke up
around this time what would you do?
P: I’d wake up in hte morning, I’d say to my misses I’m
popping round my mates house, I’d go straight away, have a
dig,
Jm: around this time it was a dig or a boot?
P: a dig yeah, and then I’d go to my mate, yeah, let’s go and
make some money, and er, every day was like this, we’d go out
and one way or another, whether it was like, breaking scrap out
of a building, you know, committing offenses of some sort, I
would make sure I was funding my habit one way or another,
Jm: how much do you reckon you’d be pulling in every day at

this stage?
P: some days hundreds of pounds, and hten some days 50 60
Jm: so if you doing an average thing, average of earnings, so on
average which do you reckon it was?
P: 50-100 I’d say,
Jm: so at this stage, when you went out on the raise did you just
have one partner in crime or a few different people?
P: yeah, yeah, I had one partner in crime yeah,
Jm: would you quite often call it a spar yeah?
P: yeah, yeah,
Jm: is that a welsh term, cos I don’t think I heard it elsewhere?
P: yeah yeah
Jm: and htrough that time you just had the one spar then?
P: yeah yeah, we was like partners in crime, we both had habits,
we both had similar circumstances, you know our lives related a
lot too each other, so we sort of er teamed up and er, we
decided we could make more money if there was 2 of us than
one of us on our own
Jm: did you both have particular skills or?
P: yeah yeah, you know I was more of a burglar type and er, a
creeper type person, and he was er a bit more in your face type
of thing and er, you know er, a bit more blatant, but yeah yeah,
we definitely had our own skills,
Jm: so when you woke up in the moring would you always have
some gear left over?
P: yeah yeah, I’d make sure that I had er had something to wake
up to, yeah, yeah I’d make sure, I wouldn’t come home unless I
had something left over, to wake up to in the morning,
Jm: you’d always work at night?
P: yeah, work in the day and the night, and this was when the
relationship withmy misses became rocky, she thought I was
having affairs, I wasn’t having affairs, I was out stealing, to pay
for my habit
Jm: but I suppose you couldn’t tell her that,
P: couldn’t tell her that, and that came in between my
relationship with us, and erm, things got a lot worse then,

Jm: so moving along here, what happened here that..
P: I split up with my misses, I ended up admitting all this to her
Jm: how much of a surprise was this to her?
P: It was a shock to her, but it explained a lot of unanswered
questions, you know, where I’ve been adn what I’ve been doing,
you know, home come I didn’t come home some days, I’d be
home at 7oclock in the evenings, some days I wouldn’t come
home til half eleven at night, you know, er she decided like she
didn’t wanna be no part of that, and we split up and I at the time
I promised her that I’d sort myself out, like I’d, I couldn’t see a
way of doing it, and i was in a routine, and, er all my life
consisted of at that time, was getting up in the morning, sorting
myself out, and then going and makin money so that I er, had
something in the morning and something to go to sleep with at
night, 35:12
Jm: and how many times would you be using through the day?
P: sometimes, it depends how my money was, if you had a
really productive day and you know, sometimes I’d use 6 ,7,8
times a day
Jm: and when you were burgling, did you sell it yourselves?
How would you convert it into money?
P: erm, well, I’d sell the stuff myself, yeah and erm it all
became like err, like a routine type of thing, it was like part of
he act type of thing, goin out and stealin was just part of, part
and parcel of then, goin out and selling it, going and findin
someone to score, you know it just took up so much time in the
day that I just didn’t have time for nothing else,
Jm: like a full time job?
P: yeah, yeah,
Jm: well would you sell it at, pubs? People?
P: People yeah, other people who i knew through council
estates, just stuff like that yeah, other drug dealers,
Jm: and so in this bit your use was obviously going up, how did
you finance this? Were you just spending more time on the raise
or?
P: well we started taking more risks, and doing bigger things

Jm: like what?
P: like doing commercial burglaries and stuff, doin shops and
smash and grabs, yeah, and it went from, just yeah, burgling,
every day yeah at a house, burgling stuff like that, it went from
that ton burgling shops, big franchises, vans full of fags, and
stuff like that, and er it started becoming a little bit reckless,
because I didn’t care who i’d hurt in a way, it was like nothing
else mattered, and it sort of went from then to there then,
Jm: and at this time, who were you hanging out with?
P: we had a little syndicate then, you know we had about four or
five of us, you know, we’d work together and one of us always
had a plan, idea of something, something we wanted to er, turn
into money,
Jm: so describe around here, so where would you normally wake
up,
P: I’d wake up in different friends houses, sometimes I err,
wouldn’t wake up from the night before, it depends, I er, I was
sort of in and out of squats I was, and er, sheds and anything,
anywhere I could find a place to get my head down, with
different friends sometimes, you know, different associates,
Jm: so in the morning you’d wake up, sort yourself out, would
there be people around where you’d woken up or would you
have to go and find them,
P:it depends, sometimes I wake up on my own, sometimes I’d
wake up with somebody else, I’d sort myself out, then I’d say
come on then lets go and make some money or if I woke up on
my own I’d go looking for, you know I always had my one
friend who I always, he’d be the first person I’d go looking for,
but if I couldn’t find him I always had other people who I could
turn to and say look, I got a little raise lined up, have you got a
little raise lined up, it just went from there,
Jm: and so for this bit here, it seems you’d levelled off here,
what happened here? Why do you think you stuck up at that
level?
P: I was stealing lots of money, that was as much as I could
smoke, as much as I could use, you know it wasn’t doing me

any good, I was erm, I was feelin ill, i was drinkin every day as
well, erm, you know, erm er, it was a roller coaster for me at
the time, when my life was really out of control, and I didn’t
know what to do, didn’t know where to begin, I thought that
was my life mapped out for me and there was no other way of
changing it, and I sort of accepted the fact that this is how I was
and er yeah, and er, and I didn’t really make any attempt to
change, and it wasn’t until like I was sleeping rough, and I was
er approached by some Christians, from a church, and er they
offered to help me, and er gimme some support, they sort of
pointed me in the right direction. And they was the ones who
helped me get in this dry house, and er they was the ones who
said to me you can put your life back in order, and made me see
some sense out of it out of the madness, of what I was living
amongst you know,
Jm: and erm going back to this time, when you were using this
time, how would you normally feel straight afterwards, as soon
as you hit it home, how would you feel?
P: erm, never happy, always depressed and er, never felt
fulfilled, you know erm, you know at this i was just using
drugs, not to get high, to feel normal,
Jm: were you managing a gauch around this time,
P: erm occasional, when it was, erm, usually if I had a spell
when it was rubbish gear, like a month, and then something nice
came in, then yeah, I would get a gauch,
Jm: was that what you were aiming for?
P: I wanted to get off my head and forget about you know, the
sorry state that my life was in,
Jm: so this point you said your partner wasn’t a user, but when
you split up with her, were there any other non users you were
chatting to, talking to, in contact with,
P: no, not really, i’d say hello, tar a, to people, but not spend
any time with no,
Jm: and were you ever speaking to your mum around this time?
P: no, my mum had sort of given up on me, and she was, I was
speaking to her, but I’d hide from her because you know she

could see that I’d lost all my teeth, I was unkept and er unclean
and er, and it used to worry her seeing me like that obviously, it
used to hurt me, her lecturing me, and er I just sort of, decided
that I had to er separate myself from her, and try and er fathom
out my problem myself,
Jm: so what happened here? Did it literally all start with the
Christians,
P: yeah yeah, it was yeah, I started getting help from these
Christians,
Jm: and now tell me about what happens, so, where was it where
you were when these Christians found you and had a chat with
you,
P:I was begging, I was begging in town, and I was approached
by these, you know, these group of people, they said look, you
know you do realise you don’t have to be sleeping rough, and I
said, well you know, the council won’t house me, I can’t get in
any hostels, you know, what else can I do, and er they said, you
know, we open our churches, one night, every night different
church every week, and they told me to turn up at erm, the soup
run, and I’d be er picked from there about seven o clock, and
taken and erm, given a meal, and er a bed for the night, so they
started getting a bit of normality back in my life, it also meant
that I started to bring my habit down then, and because I used to
have to get my fix before seven o clock, thought I could go and
relax in the evenings, which meant that I wasn’t out in the night
times and so I wasn’t you know, committing offenses, and er,
you know, I’d get up in the morning and erm, they’d drop me
back into town, I’d go and get a couple of racks of clothes from
a shop or something, sell them in a pub, I’d sit beggin all day as
well, I’d probably make hundred pound, hundred and fifty
pound,
Jm: you said that when these Christian guys found you, you
were begging, why at that point were you begging and not going
on the raise?
P: yeah, yeah, I started begging because erm, now I was
starting to run out of options, of shops and er, I was getting

followed everywhere round town, it was just becoming
impossible do er do anything, I was sort of forced into, having
to bring my habit down,
Jm: and why not burglary at that point?
P: because I was being followed all the time, I was being
followed round town by store detectives, so it was just
becoming even more difficult, more and more known to the
police,
Jm: you said there was about four or five in your crew at that
time, what about them?
P: they were in the same position to me, yeah, they were, we
were well known to the police, there wasn’t much we could get
away with no more, and we was getting roped in for stuff we
wasn’t even doing any more, getting harassed all the time, it
was it was, we had no real other choice really, well I had no
other choice, some of them, they still in the same place they are,
its where I was, I sort of separate myself from them I do, and
I’m sort of in a hostel, my life’s going in a different direction,
Jm: do you ever see them these days?
P: I don’t bother with them really,
Jm: do you avoid them or do you just not see them,
P: I say hallo to them at the shop, talk to them yeah, but I don’t
want to spend any time with them, I quickly erm, move on,
48:09
Jm: and erm, what else about this time, so when did they get
you into the dry house?
P: it was only about 2 months ago,
Jm: and for most of this you were still sleeping rough?
P: yeah, and sleeping in the churches in the nights,
Jm: and you’d wake up, you’d usually have something to sort
yourself out in the morning?
P: I’d wake up in the morning, I wouldn’t use in the church,
obviously, but I’d wake up in the morning ill, they’d drop me in
town, I’d go straight to the toilets that’s in town and sort myself
out, and then I would beg then, all day, to fund money, before
ten o clock so I can sort myself out again, and at this point I

was trying to get on a program, with attending appointments and
waiting to be put on a methadone script, and erm, trying to get
my life in order, I was getting support from the church people,
from the homeless people as well, from other homeless people ,
I started, er, not haging round with the drinkers, and I decided
that I couldn’t afford to er drink and use heroin , so drink
become a second, and heroin become a first and even though I
continued to use heroin, and I brought my habit down, and thats
when I started to get a plan back into my life, and rty and sort
of, make my life a little bit better than it was,
Jm: so now we’re gonna talk about the binge you went on about
three weeks ago, tell me about the day the binge happened,
when did you first get on it this day?
P: well what happened I bumped into a mate I hadn’t seen in a
while, he had a few hundred pound, and he said to me come on,
we’ll go, had a party type of thing,
Jm: where was it?
P: My friends house, we went to my friends flat, smoked crack,
and then he’s bought erm, a quarter of heroin, quarter of an
ounce,
Jm: and the way you were feeling, before you bumped into them
was it different, could you have seen it coming there,
P: well no it was er, I was sort of having a bad day, and you
know I was still trying to make some sense, trying to bring
some order to my life, I was a little bit on the brink I think,
starting to give up hope I was er, and I thought to myself why
am I trying, I’m not getting anywhere, and I bumpen into him
and kind of went off the rails and it was only for a night or 2 I
spent with him, then I thought to myself, what am I doing, I’ve
just, all this work that I’ve done, I’ve just blown it all out of
proportion, and for what, I was on methadone, I didn’t need to
use, and er I , and still now I find it difficult to break the habit,
I still use in the morning, and when I go to bed at night, so I’m
still using twice a day now, on top of my methadone, I think it’s
breaking the habit it’s, I find it difficult you know, they’d
offered me some counselling, and I’m thinking of taking it you

know, yeah so, really er, some days I’ll wake up and I don’t
use, and I use once a day, and thrn some days I’ll use twice a
day, if I use twice a day now I feel like I’m letting myself
down,
Jm: So the guy that you went on the party with, did he feel like
he owed you?
P: yeah, yeah, cos I’d sorted him out on numerous occasions,
when I was doing well and I’d have a good raise, you know I’d
looked after him, you know, couple of time he’d been bad and
I’d helped him out, and he sort of like he was returning the
favour, and you know, it wasn’t his fault, it was my fault cos I
said yeah, but it was definitely that he felt like he owed it too
much, and er you know he was doing it as a friendly gesture
Jm: how did you find getting back, was it quite hard to get back
down afterwards?
P: no it wasn’t cos I was like stable on the methadone anyway, I
think like the methadone, cos I was on like 70 miligrams, the
meth was holding me, and the meth was stronger than the gear
really, I gauch off of it because like I do it on top of my meth, I
think If I hadn’t of had my methadone that day and I’d have
used I think I probably wouldn’t have gauched,
Jm: so now you’re on the meth, are there any days you don’t
manage to score, don’t manage to get any,
P: yeah, there’s still days when I’m skint, and I’m not able to
get anything, but usually I’ll bump into friends or someone
who’ll help me out,
Jm: so I suppose the advantage of spending so much time up
here is that there’s quite a lot of people who owe you one,
P: yeah,
Jm: does it hold you the 70 mil?
P: yeah it does,
Jm: so you wouldn’t be clucking if you just
P: no, I wake up in the morning now and I don’t have to use ,
(some inaudible) I only use now if I’m having a bad day, you
know so, I use once a day so, so like I sadi I’m still trying to
get out of it, I got so used to using, you know the methadone is

working for me and holding me, it’s hard to break the habit, you
know I’m using and I’m still trying to tackle that problem,
Jm: do you think much about trying to knock it on the head
entirely,
P: yeah,
Jm: whats the thought process you get normally when you think
about quitting,
P:erm, I feel as every day goes by, I feel a little bit stronger,
and a little bit closer, to achieving my goal, you know,
definitely, and I find that the less time that i’m spending around
people whose flat out, and the more normality that’s coming
Back into my life, the more will that its giving me to want to be
different, I want to make the changes, you know erm, so yeah
yeah, so I feel its not going to be a long way away, in the
distant future that I’m gonna be able to say and look at myself,
look I’m not using any more, and only on methadone, and even
my doctor at where I’m prescribed my methadone, he seems to
think that, cos the program that I’m on at the moment, its only a
six month program, and he’s already talking about it, sending
me to CAU, for an extended, cos he feels that, he’s not going to
be able to tackle my problems within 6 months, so you know,
I’ve been open with him that I’m , I’ve told him exactly how my
life is, how my life has gone, and he seems to think that I’m in
need of a bit more help like, than this program is able to offer
me, so that’s good, to know that er, I got that help there, is a
big weight off my mind,
Jm: yeah?
P: yeah, definitely, erm, I gotta be honest, I like I said the more
I’m spending time around straight people, the more i’m wanting
to become straight, and er, the more I, the more normal things I
want back in my life, that haven’t been in my life for so long,
you know, like er waking up in my own place, erm, paying my
rent, erm, you know, getting a job, you know I started, erm,
doing work with homeless people, only voluntary work you
know like, but er, starting to get a little bit of normality back in
my life now, and you know, things are starting to get a little bit

better, a little bit brighter,
Jm: excellent, that’s great, that’s the end of it then,

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