What marketers wish developers knew
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The document discusses the importance of effective communication and collaboration between marketers and developers, emphasizing the need for vulnerability, empathy, and trust. It highlights key concepts such as daring leadership and radical candor, advocating for open discussions to understand each other's roles better. The author stresses that building relationships grounded in these principles can enhance productivity and improve workplace dynamics.
![“I took initiative at previous companies to get to know the
Manager or Director … [this] was meant to get us on the same
page, and help us understand one another's roles.
“This led to great discussions. Devs would ask me questions
about optimizing, how they could write code or make changes
that were friendly for search engines and the marketing teams
efforts, and if what they were working on needed our input…
(continued)
@dustinnay](https://image.slidesharecdn.com/whatmarketerswishdevelopersknew-191014203331/85/What-marketers-wish-developers-knew-31-320.jpg)
What marketers wish developers knew
- 1. What Marketers Wish Developers Knew and other such folklore
- 3. @dustinnay • Marketer (10 years) • NOT a developer • Web designer (9 years) • Solopreneurs to Fortune 50 • Hiking, cooking, reading • Dungeons & Dragons • Ich kann auch Deutsch • Never broken a bone
- 4. • Web design & marketing at Smarter Parenting • Freelance web designer & corporate event planner • Tabletop game designer • Aspiring fantasy writer @dustinnay
- 6. • Radical Candor, by Kim Scott • Dare to Lead, by Brené Brown (also: “The Gifts of Imperfection”, “Daring Greatly”, “Rising Strong”, “Braving the Wilderness”) • Wherever You Go, There You Are, by Jon Kabat-Zinn • Self Compassion, by Kristin Neff (clearly also The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien) @dustinnay
- 8. @dustinnay
- 9. “An ‘ideal marketing mind’ would be balanced equally between analytical and verbal abilities, with excellent communications skills, including listening… …well-organized, self-motivated, conscious of time, and somewhat aggressive; emphatic, understanding, and solutions- oriented, with a firm grounding …behavioral science; and imaginative, creative, expressive, and persuasive. The ideal practitioner would be cordial and congenial, easy to work with, and would truly enjoy meeting new people in new places.” - University of Arkansas at Little Rock website - @dustinnay
- 10. @dustinnay
- 16. • Reliable completion deadline and follow through • Messing up tracking codes • Too much Javascript ahead of indexable content (and other such coding faux pas) • Using an elephant gun where a water pistol would do @dustinnay
- 17. @dustinnay
- 18. End of Speech
- 20. People don’t like to talk about the real problems… @dustinnay So we’re going to talk about how to talk about the real problems.
- 28. So… What is the secret to successful collaboration? @dustinnay
- 29. Radically candid, vulnerable communication @dustinnay
- 31. “I took initiative at previous companies to get to know the Manager or Director … [this] was meant to get us on the same page, and help us understand one another's roles. “This led to great discussions. Devs would ask me questions about optimizing, how they could write code or make changes that were friendly for search engines and the marketing teams efforts, and if what they were working on needed our input… (continued) @dustinnay
- 32. “…These discussions always led to bigger and better things. Because we as marketers also don’t understand them… “I would often make requests that seemed easy, but because of our working relationship, they took the time to describe to me why they weren't easy, were impossible, or needed to be done differently. They could have just said "No", but they didn’t.” – JJ, in-house marketer – @dustinnay
- 33. “Trust is the glue of life. It's the most essential ingredient in effective communication. It's the foundational principle that holds all relationships.” – Stephen R. Covey – @dustinnay
- 34. @dustinnay
- 36. Concepts to Cover 1. Daring leadership 2. Radical candor 3. Practical Implementation @dustinnay
- 37. Daring Leadership 1. Vulnerability and Empathy 2. BRAVING 3. What does done look like? @dustinnay
- 39. The Power of Vulnerability https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_ on_vulnerability
- 40. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man in the arena… (continued) @dustinnay
- 41. “…whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds… (continued) @dustinnay
- 42. “…who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly.” – Theodore Roosevelt – “Citizenship in a Republic”, Paris, France, 1910 @dustinnay
- 43. “Vulnerability is not about winning, and it’s not about losing. It’s about having the courage to show up and be seen.” – Brene Brown – “Rising Strong”
- 44. To be a daring leader, team member, employee, contractor, or client • Be vulnerable, with peers and your direct reports • Be transparent with your team • Find common ground in shared values to build trust @dustinnay
- 46. B – Boundaries You respect my boundaries and when you are not clear about what’s OK and what’s not OK, you ask. You are willing to say no. @dustinnay
- 47. R – Reliability You do what you say you’ll do. At work this means staying aware of your competencies and limitations so that you don’t over-promise and are able to deliver on commitments and balance competing priorities. @dustinnay
- 48. A – Accountability You own your mistakes, apologize, and make amends. @dustinnay
- 49. V – Vault You don’t share information or experiences that are not yours to share. I need to know that my confidences are kept and that you are not sharing with me information about other people that should be confidential. @dustinnay
- 50. I – Integrity You choose courage over comfort. You choose what is right over what is fun, fast, or easy. And you choose to practice your values rather than simply professing them. @dustinnay
- 51. N – Non-Judgement I can ask for what I need, and you can ask for what you need. We can talk about how we feel without judgment. @dustinnay
- 52. G – Generosity You extend the most generous interpretation possible to the intentions, words and actions of others. @dustinnay
- 57. “Nothing is a bigger time-sucker or blocker to getting it right than ego.” – Kim Scott – @dustinnay
- 58. Radical candor is humble. helpful immediate in person not personalized @dustinnay
- 59. Daring leadership and radical candor, ultimately, are about: 1. Good listening 2. Good questions 3. Direct communication @dustinnay
- 60. Good questions to ask • What does “done” look like to you? • What is the business objective for this project? • How much time do you (generously) need to complete your part of the project? I need X days/weeks/months. Is that timetable realistic? • Can you help me prioritize these requests so I get the most critical components done first? @dustinnay
- 64. Smarter Parenting: a practical behavioral model to use in the moment Some Fundamental Skills from Smarter Parenting: • ABCs of Behavior • Observe & Describe @dustinnay
- 65. ABCs of Behavior
- 66. Observe & Describe • Observe what is happening or being said (non-verbal, in your head) • Describe aloud what is happening in your own words @dustinnay
- 68. Sometimes you’ll have to work with someone who is unwilling to meet you in the middle, be vulnerable, trusting, empathetic, or candid. Just do your best, influence them to adjust their behavior if possible, or move on (let them go or you quit…). @dustinnay
- 69. Remember… “Don't try to win over the haters; you are not a jackass whisperer.” - Scott Stratten -
- 70. Above all • Be mindful of your own emotions when communicating in person or digitally • Try to be observant of the body language of others • Be proactive, not reactive @dustinnay
- 71. By building real relationships of trust, on a foundation of vulnerability, empathy, and radical candor (and of course mindfully aware of yourself through the whole thing)… … I believe we can greatly improve our productivity AND our sanity, and make everybody a whole lot happier. @dustinnay
- 72. Dustin Nay dustin@withgpm.com @dustinnay Please feel free to email for slides, clarification, or questions. I love talking about this stuff.
Editor's Notes
- #8: Let’s go on an adventure!
- #9: I must preface this by saying that clearly everything on the internet is true. Memes are life, etc.
- #10: An ideal marketing mind…
- #11: How many of you would love to work with a marketer that matches that description??
- #12: The reality is that navigation these relationships is a bit more like navigating the geopolitical landscape of Middle Earth. There are kings to keep happy, backstabbing underlings who must be watched, and a balance of power must be maintained… because if the darkness in Mordor grows to strong, it can crush the rest of the kingdoms…
- #13: And it turns into an all out war…
- #15: With factions, board room battles
- #16: And big walled silos.
- #17: Snowball effect of delays and deadlines What are the biggest complaints marketers have about developers and dev teams? Some of those things can be hard to hear… and I KNOW you have similar complaints about marketers– it definitely goes both ways causing issues for the other team.
- #18: So that’s basically everything you need to know about what marketers wish developers knew, right?
- #19: …you can all go home now…
- #20: Just kidding
- #22: Rather than playing games of office politics, trying to blame others, back stab, brown nose, subvert and deceive… what if we collaborated…
- #23: Remembered who the real enemy is (hint: it is the competition and mediocrity)
- #24: Coming together in an epic fellowship with a single goal: achieve the best business outcome for the organization.
- #25: It is not an easy journey… it’s not as simple as
- #26: Being carried into Mordor on the backs of giant eagles
- #27: But the combined efforts of the group…
- #28: Can achieve a seemingly impossible goal…
- #30: Influences: Radical Candor by Kim Scott, and Dare to Lead by Brene Brown
- #33: What is the foundation of a working relationship? I say it’s trust.
- #36: What’s in your toolbox?
- #39: Now, I know to some of you developers in the room, the word “vulnerability” has a different connotation, and it’s not a good one… but let’s set that aside for a moment.
- #40: If you’re not familiar with Brene Brown, I recommend you start with this Ted Talk, then her 2nd Ted Talk, then read her books (in order) and watch her Netflix special… it might change your life.
- #44: --Brene Brown
- #46: And yes, I realize what I’m talking about here is not the first thing that comes to your dev mind when I talk about frameworks… but…
- #54: Speaking of frameworks… let me give you another one.
- #55: Care personally Challenge directly
- #56: the worst place to be is on the side of silence – obnoxious aggression is still better than ruinous empathy or manipulative sincerity Not the same as “brutal honesty” – the intention of being radically candid is to be helpful, coming from a place of caring.
- #62: Speaking of frameworks… let me give you another one.
- #63: My day job Is working at Smarter Parenting… and we teach parenting skills. Yes, I know we’re talking about kids here, but so many of these skills are transferable! Teaching-Family Model – developed with a $20 million budget from NIMH in the 1960s, well-supported by ongoing research, and used to help hundreds of thousands of parents and children nationwide. But today I’m talking about how these same communication skills can be applied in every day life.
- #64: This isn’t a parenting skill I’m talking about, although when my kids are older, I may pull this one out of the toolbox…
- #66: Antecedent is the trigger or event which preceded a behavior– this is about gathering information so that you understand what led to a behavior. If a co-worker has a defensive response, you can ask direct questions (with a neutral tone!) to gain better understanding about what preceded their behavior. Consequences are a natural result. If someone is particularly defensive or even offensive or unwilling to continue a conversation, you might consider pausing the discussion for another time. Consequences should be natural, not punitive. Consequences are also not necessarily negative. What is a natural positive consequence of a positive behavior? This fundamental skill is about awareness: of yourself and the other person, so that you can be in a place to communicate clearly.
- #67: Describe: asking for feedback about the accuracy of your description from the other person (or in writing or mentally, if you are in a meeting and not a place to comment yet) If you are feeling emotionally reactive to something being said in a meeting… perhaps you are feeling attacked and wanting to respond defensively: using this skill will pull your brain out of the amigdala or emotional center of the brain (responsible for fight or flight) and bring your awareness to your prefrontal cortex, the reasoning part of your brain. Being in this mindful space will better allow you to respond and assess the situation.
- #68: If you’re interested, I definitely encourage you go to SmarterParenting.com and go through the lessons – video/text content is there, and it’s all free! There’s a lot more there too for parents.